Matthew,
Unlike many of the people that disagree with you, I can actually empathize with you. I am just as attracted to the same sex as you are, and like you I did not choose those attractions. I am your age, almost 23, and for the past two years I have also been on a search for truth. My search differs from yours, though. You see, I was already unashamedly accepting of my homosexual feelings and was out to everyone that I knew by the age of 20. Then, in Sept of 2010, God interrupted my life and caused me to take a more massive U-Turn than I could have ever imagined. Over the past two years I have come to know God, study His Word, and understand homosexuality in a way that I never had before.
Firstly, I am not even going to debate you concerning Sodom and Gomorrah or the two passages in Leviticus that clearly point out homosexual behavior is an abomination. If I hear one more thing like “well do you eat shellfish or watch football? that’s a sin!”, I will spontaneously com-bust. We are at this time under the New Covenant, by the blood of Jesus, and the ultimate source of clarity and truth about how we are to live will come from the New Testament Scriptures. I am not by any means voiding out the importance, truth or relevance of the Levitical Law; but because of the confusion it may cause some of the readers I will refrain from it for the time being and focus on the three NT Scriptures that you also addressed.
Romans 1
” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
- Romans 1:18-32
In your argument, you firmly state that you believe this passage, but say that the rest of us have remained unaware of the true contextual meaning. You claim that the homosexuals this passage is referring to are people who always had heterosexual feelings, but in defiance to God they turned away from him and adopted homosexual behaviors, which are contrary to their nature. You tell us that this passage isn’t applicable to people who were born homosexual, because same-sex desires are natural to them.
Basically, you say that if you’re born gay, same-sex relationships are okay. But if you’re born straight, it’s not okay. In fact, you claim that if a person who thinks they are gay gets married and has a family with someone of the opposite sex, then they are in sin and deep idolatry since they are doing what is contrary to their “true nature”. You believe, according to this Scripture, that God has made some of us gay and some of us straight, and that we should live according to how he oriented us.
I am sorry, but you have to have a deeply darkened/deceived heart to be able to believe such a foolish lie and extract such an erroneous interpretation from this passage in Romans.
Everything that you have stated above about “innate same sex attraction” being the justifiable reason to pursue relationship with a member the same sex can not be found in Romans nor any other book, chapter, or verse in the Bible. You are taking your own ideas and projecting them into the Scripture rather than taking the Scripture and allowing it to shape what you believe. If you want to believe homosexuality is not unnatural/sinful, by all means I guess you have the right to do so. But in no way, shape or form can you use Romans 1 to back that position up.
In the first few chapter of Romans, Paul is making a point to group us all into the classification of sinners. He points out that we have all been given a knowledge of God… yet we have all suppressed it and rejected Him. He states that because of our stubborn rejection God has given us over into the grip of our sins… with some it is homosexual passions and desires…but ultimately we all fall into the list of over twenty sins as the end of Chapter 1. That is the point of Romans 1… pointing out all of us as sinners… not just some of us.
1 Corinthians 6 & 1 Timothy 1
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”- 1 Corinthians 6:9
“For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”- 1 Timothy 1:10.
The references to homosexuality in the above verses come from the Greek words [malaokois] (effeminate) and [arsenokoitai] (abusers of themselves with mankind).
Arsenokoitai is a term that Paul seems to have coined, in which he used two words to form the one. The word is made up of the two terms “bed” and “male” in the plural sense, hence we see he means two men in a bed. You say that this carries more of an economic context, such as prostitution, rather than same-sex sexual sin. You claim that 1 Corinthians 6 isn’t even directed toward sexual sin contextually. The problem is that you are once again projecting your own ideas into the text. The context of this part of 1 Corinthians is in fact sexual sin, as we see Paul rebuking the church in regard to the man who had sexual relations with his mother in Chapter 5… immediately proceeding from Chapter 5 carrying over his theme of sexual immorality into Chapter 6.
Again, Arsenokoitai: Two men, one bed… pretty clear.
Now, malaokois is another term you also addressed and informed the viewers of your video that it’s definition in the greek was “soft”, which is true. Many who agree with you say that we can’t really know what Paul meant by using this word and harshly forbid that anyone draw any lines from this word, “soft”, to homosexuality. I have one problem with this…. it’s right after the word describing homosexual behavior in the midst of two entire chapters addressing sexual immorality. Therefore I would say it is relevant to the issue of sexual sin and is in fact defining the “passive” partner in homosexual relations or even describing those who are homosexual who act like women… which we still see much of that behavior today.
But on that note, pertaining to effeminacy, I will say one thing… there are many ignorant and arrogant Christians who look at someone like me and say that I am effeminate because I don’t wear camouflage, watch football, and shoot stuff while I sit in a tree. That’s…. retarded. I’m sorry, I can’t think of a better word to describe the redneck-idiocy of that ideology. Biblical masculinity is defined as being the leader, authoritative, protective, the cultivator, the provider, etc. That is biblical masculinity. So the church, and our culture, needs to stop coming down on guys who are into arts, music, theatre, etc. Stop telling these people they need to change or that they are “Fags”. There is nothing masculine about feeding a little deer all year long then going and getting up in a tree and shooting it. If you want to be masculine, jump out of that tree and tear you clothes off and chase that deer down and kill it with your bare hands! …… that’s extreme. Sorry. But you catch my drift…
(And all credit to Matt Chandler for that vivid imagery used to mock cultural masculinity, love that guy)
Okay let me reign this back in to the main point. Matthew, and all others who are advertising and believing this “gay-gospel”: Your extreme perversions of the Scripture are going to be the death of you. Please, ask the Lord to soften your heart and let you come to the Scripture ready to hear him rather than coming to the Scripture, deriving parts from it, and adding in your own ideas to make it flow with your predetermined acceptance of homosexuality.
If you are a professing Christian who accepts your homosexual feelings as good and believes the outrageous interpretations that people like Matthew Vine’s are presenting, please check your heart. Examine yourself and see if you truly love Jesus. Not the “Jesus” you’ve created with your imagination who condones everything you do and just wants you to have your “best life now”. I mean the Jesus of the Scriptures, who fulfilled the Scriptures, who was crucified for the sins of His people and raised for their justification. It is only in this Jesus that salvation is found.
Matt Moore
mmoore0689@yahoo.com
http://www.facebook.com/moorematt89
http://www.moorematt.com
[ This post was updated on 7/8/2012. The way that I worded a few sentences were unnecessarily sarcastic due to my frustration when I originally wrote this in March. I apologize to anyone who may have been offended. I also removed a couple of paragraphs that were irrelevant to the topic ]
God Bless You Matt! You are absolutely right! Hatred is not the answer. Nor is prejudice. Nothing less than love… for any of our fellow men and women, regardless of sexual orientation. However, that same love also means not allowing the lies to reign, but to be responsible to the truth regarding the Bible. It will anger some. It will cause others to turn away. But, Matt, you are doing the right thing. You are standing up for the truth. It will lead many to the One.
“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil” John 7:7
Like you pointed out.. we are all sinners. Some will be convicted and believe the truth, others will hate the truth.
So true Steph! God bless you! I look for the day when homosexuals will stop complaing about their “struggle” to accept celibacy. They need to accept celibacy as their yoke to bare in this life. Although I have not been called to celibacy it is important that the homosexual be educated in their duty to keep their virginity and to remain celibate. Christ said, “he that can accept [celibacy] let him accept it.” (Matthew 19:12) but this saying was strictly intended for heterosexuals. Christ gave the option of celibacy to heterosexuals but not to the homosexual. The homosexual does not have the right to make claims to this statment. Gays must HUMBLE themselves and obey the Word of the Lord. This is where I believe the Church has fallen short in it’s responsibility to the homosexual. The Church must not only condemn the sin of homosexuality but also EDUCATE the homosexual on how they must conduct their daily lives after he/she has been convicted of these deviant desires. In Genisis God said, “it is not good for man to be alone” (2:18). It is important that the homosexual understand that this is ONLY applicable for heterosexuals. Heterosexuals can not bare the burden of being celibate as easily as gay people hence our NEED for a partner but homosexuals can bare this burden for God would not give gay people more weight than they can bare; He is always faithful in all His promises (Psalm 145). The homosexual will hate me for imposing celibacy onto him/her but if they hated Christ for speaking the Truth than I should not be exempt from their hatred either. (By the way Stephanie, my new-born daughter is also called Stephanie. My wife and I are so joyous in our newly formed family) Anyway, God guide us ALL and especially help guide the homosexual to accept his/her celibacy.
Wow…what ignorance. You are deeply misguided my friend. I fear that you, from your completely insensitive remarks and outright unbiblical opinions may not truly know Jesus either. While I am open to even the harshest of “tough love” responses from another Christian brother, your moronic reply reads that of a 5 year old, completely ridiculous and laughable, and can’t be taken seriously.
You have to be joking!
Implying that what the Lord really meant to say was “it is not good for HETEROSEXUALS to be alone, however, for HOMOSEXUALS, it’s great to be alone. In fact, that’s what I equipped them for. Loneliness.” is absolutely false doctrine, if not the silliest thing I’ve ever heard.
REALLY?!?!?!
To say that straight people can’t bear being single as much as gays is absolutely ludicrous. And then ending by proclaiming how joyous you and your wife are at the gift of marriage and children and family, having just opened your paragraph by saying “I can’t wait until the homosexuals stop complaining about having to embrace a life of celibacy.” I’m blown away by how insensitive you are.
Sadly, coming from someone who claims to be a Christian, there is very little of Jesus to be found in your comments.
Mike-it is interesting as you celebrate a daughter and marriage, you long for the day the homosexuals accept their God imposed celibacy. I sure hope you are willing to exchange a few hours of study so that you do not wrongfully imposed YOUR understanding of Scripture on 5% or the population. People are called to celibacy–not all heterosexuals or homosexuals. Can you understand the apparent arrogance in a statement like–why can’t they just accept this, oh, here is my wife and my new daughter, I sure hope those gay people would just stop complaining and accept that they need to be alone to please God. Might I suggest that you take a vow of celibacy while you study this issue in depth and enter into the suffering of your brothers and sisters in Christ?
Wow. So homosexuals are stronger than heterosexuals therefore the rules don’t apply to them. That is absurd. I study and continue to learn what the Bible had to say, but what I know is that I have prayed and approached God on my sexuality. What I know is that God loves me and has told me, yes told me, that my gay is ok. It is his gift to me, my sin is that for years I did not honor that gift but hid it away. I know that I will never change your mind, but I know what my truth is before God.
I wish celibacy was as easy as that. I guess you think that it’s okay if you find someone to love and be loved by, but not so for gay people. You also have a tone of sounding like gay people are sinners if they have sex, or that there is something wrong with gay people, that they are not accepted by God. By your holding to these beliefs – you are adding to the misery, pain and rejection gay people already feel. I pray you will see someday that there is something wrong with your belief system, and that, it is not the Bible that teaches you this.
Mike,
Your statements are from a heart filled with hatred against those who have experienced a a new life in Christ. You have done but mocked practically everyone has posted on these blogs. If someone is Christ than makes that a new person so it is no longer about being a homosexual or heterosexual but a new person in Christ with a new identity. We in the USA churches have settled for a form of godliness but denied the power of God to change a life. Nothing is impossible with God and my life is a testimony to that. If you have nothing than empty ritualistic religion that your statements make sense but the gospel of God is about the power of salvation which calls us to a new life with new desires. We will still struggle with the sinful desires from the old life but it is a dead corpse inside us seeking its will over us. We are called to consider it dead. Colossians chapter 3 deals with this issue. We as humans will be tempted by satan with the same old lie that we know better than God and gratifying into our sinful desires is our true identity, and the best way to live.
I found ironic that the satanic church with their satanic bible has a better grasp than you seem to have about the true nature of following our sinful indulgences. They have nine satanic statements pertaining what it means to worship satan.
Here are some of those nine satanic statements:
1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe-dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
So when we seek to gratify to seek our sinful nature than in essence we are worshiping satan not God.
The apostle John in 1 John 3:7-10 says the following about this in Christ.
“Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.”
Christ came to destroy the power of satan over us and we can live in victory finding the greatest fulfillment as we walk being led by the power of the Holy Spirit and renewed daily in our thinking by the scriptures. Christ came not just to save us our spiritually but to sanctified our souls and eventually we will be given a new and glorified body.
Paul gives this instruction on how we are to live in Romans 13:11-14
“Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is almost gone; the day of salvation will soon be here. So remove your dark deeds like dirty clothes, and put on the shining armor of right living. Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don’t participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy. Instead, clothe yourself with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. And don’t let yourself think about ways to indulge your evil desires.
Mike, this is absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is based on the assumption that God created homosexuals with same-sex attractions because he wanted them to remain celibate.
First of all, by saying this you are actually AGREEING with the fact that homosexuality is a natural orientation.
Secondly, there are people that God created to be celibate. They are called ASEXUALS. Go educate yourself.
Not to mention, your whole idea that heterosexuals cannot remain celibate, but homosexuals can is perposterous. You are not only a hypocrite, but your whining makes you seem childish! Never wish upon another person a burden that you wouldn’t dare accept yourself.
You have no right to impose celibacy on anyone. You are not God. You are not even a true Christian. Go read the bible for once and find some love for your brothers and sisters in christ.
Mike,
I must disagree with you on Matthew 19:12 being just for straights. If you notice Jesus gives 3 types of eunuchs. One being born so from his mother’s womb. That’s me! I never knew any other feelings but for other guys. The second, the man-made eunuch through being castrated. This type could be straight or gay. Finally, there are eunuchs, who through their own choice, do so for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. My situation applies here too, I’m sure you know why, but also some straight people do this for their own reasons. Jesus then says, “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. For another example read Isaiah 56:3-5.
Matt Moore. sorry but i feel you are judging others. Mathew gave an interpritation of what he thinks is valid. He did not ask for your rightous so called christians of better faith to slam his search for the truth he beleives in. Why not soften your tone and be more loving in your beliefs and interpritation. I find your way of handling this quite ofensive But asking anyone to check their heart and ask if they truly love Jesus is just not for you to even suggest. Its people like you who make me stay away from the christian faith.
Ken
But as christians, it’s our duty to teach sound doctrine. If Matthew is one of the false teachers that the Bible speaks of, then we should be trying our hardest to portray what the scriptures really mean. Maybe he spoke a bit offensively, but Matt is trying to show believers the truth. That’s love in its most true form. You’re just upset because he’s saying things you don’t want to hear. Also, Paul tells us often to check our faith to make sure we are true believers, and not just following the motions. So Paul is allowed to tell us to examine our faith, but Matt isn’t?
Yes Bethany and thats my exact point to TEACH IS WHAT WAS EXPECTED. All Matt did wasJudge and be rude. He had no loving and comassion in what he said but hey who an i to judge. If he attempted to have the faith he would have tought in a comassionate and loving way. What i read as unbeleivable. And again i say who gives you or anyone the right to judge. And i again i say its people like you and Matt that i will not put my foot near the christian faith because all i have had to deal with is judgemental unloving understanding. I am not gay but have family that is and i never would dream of taking the lords job and try and put someone down just beause they are gay. Who gives any one the right to say that being gay is wrong and Mathew in his teachings was telling his interpretation of what he beleives is correct. take it or leave it but for goddness sake dont judge and be rude. Well then again did i expect anything different from the christians.. I guess not because thats what christians do. JUDGE ????? No where in Mathews talk did he ever judge or say that all he was saying is correct he was merely trying to tell people that no matter what we all deserve to be loved in a loving way. What Matt has done has pushed a lot of peole further from their truth. Why does Matt not rather find a way of preaching a loving and accepting way of accepting people. As the bible says take the log out of your own eye before taking the splinter out of others. No one has the right to pass judgment on anything. I find the christian faith so far from the truth and do i go and slander you guys no. If it works for you and you are happy with yourself then let it be but you have no right to even correct others. your job is to preach understanding without being rude and judgmental. And yes Behany you are allowed to beleive and worship any way you feel is correct fo you but you have no right to think it is the only way. there are many ways to be totally spritual without affecting others in a negative way. Mathew did this spot on. have a good day
loving thoughts to you from Ken
Bruce by the way what has my oriantation got to do with the subject. gay straight whatever. Are you also going to judge me because of my oriantation. get a life please Ken
Ken, aren’t you now asking Matt to check his heart?
Christianity is about diversity. Jesus is inviting all mankind to unity. In Matt. 19:4-6 Jesus is requiring diversity of the sexes in marriage.
Diversity orientation = man + female.
What orientation are you?
Hi Bruce, if you cared To read my entire message and took the hole thing in context you will know what my oriantation is. Dont be a fool and comment for the sake of commenting. And again you christians quote bible versas that have no relevence, because you using them out of context. at least Mathew gave you a loving informative session that you could either take or you could leave but instead you christians decided to JUDGE AND BE RUDE. THINK THINK THINK AND READ BEFORE YOU COMMENT. ?????
Ken,
You are just stating opinions with nothing to validate them.
Diversity orientation = woman + man (heterosexuality). Right?
Now, what orientation are you?
Let’s use our heads…
1. Two men is not diversity.
2. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation that segregates men and women into male and female groups in the name of ‘love’.
3. Homosexuality is thus an anti-diversity orientation when it comes to ‘love’.
But, if we can discourage obesity, when obesity is genetic, why can’t we lovingly help gay folks to be healed from their anti-diversity, gender bigotry or gender phobia?
Of course I’m not discounting your effort to ask Matt to be more loving. I can improve in my love also.
Bruce again i say read my message I an straight and you are a total fool
I didn’t say anything about your orientation specifically. So, what are you talking about? Why not just try and make sense?
Btw Ken, what right do you have to correct us? You even call me a fool!
Christ can set you free from arrogance, judgmentalism, and rudeness.
As I said Bruce you are a fool. It is the very exact message that Matt gave hat is arogant judgemental and rude. yet you christians think you have the rigt because you think you are better than other humans, to say and do as you please. Yet when someone gives you back your own medicine its wrong. And Bruce i suggest you read the whole debate before you butt in with crap you dishing out
Ken, you have not shown me to be a fool. In fact, you try to correct and judge others, as you go and condemn others for apparently doing the same thing!
Now let’s havea rational discussion.
Ken,
Are you not also judging on the premise that Matthew is right and Matt but on what truth?
Paul did warn us that in the last days people would redefine truth seeking for teachers that tick their ears. An personal interpretation is very subjective and makes Matthew the arbiter of truth but this is how people now believe wanting to create their own truth instead of being confronted with the Truth which is Christ and the gospel as written in the New Testament.
Paul warned Timothy about our times in 2 Timothy 4:1-4
“I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.
For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths.”
Albert, did it ever occur to you that we don’t actually know exactly when that time Paul wrote about was coming? What if it already came centuries ago, and all this time you’ve probably been following not a sound and wholesome teaching, maybe chasing after your own myths?
Many modern Christians think they are standing firm and their eyes and ears are open and they’d never be like the scribes and pharisees long time ago. What if many are deluding themselves and Matthew 7:22-23 is about them?
Bro Matt, You are on the straight a narrow path and satan is out to destroy you role in the body of Christ. I sense you are sold out to Christ and that the road you are on will lead to everlasting life. Matt you are a new man, your past is forgotton a lost memory to God. Press on and keep sharing the testimony you have. I have been praying for you since I find your page. I plead the blood of Jesus over your life that you will continue in the boldness you have shown. Back down to no man! That all men and women be a liar, but God can not lie! You are 100% speaking the word of the Lord! Blessings!
Linda, truer words could not have been spoken! You speak the will of God! The gay community is trying to louer Matt away from his obligation to follow celibacy in this life. Gay people hate celibacy.God has a special plan for Matt and that plan is to submit to His calling to remain a single man. Matt must continue to preach celibacy to all homosexuals so that the will of God might be fulfilled in their lives. The proof of Matt’s obligation to God to remain celibate can be seen in Matt’s own blog. Matt states: God delivered him from drunkeness, God delivered him from cussing, God delivered him from ignorance of not knowing Christ, God delivered him from ‘gay’ friends, God delivered him from smoking and God delivered him from clubs and parties BUT God withheld 1 aspect of deliverence from Matt and that is being delivered from BEING a homosexual. Do you know why? Because homosexuality is not somthing to be delivered from since it automatically shows that God wants the homosexual to be celibate/single. It is the ACTIONS of homosexulaity that a person must be delivered from- not the state of being a homosexual. Matt admits that it is not easy to resist homsexual practices as is readily seen in his continuing to CHOOSE to occasionally wallow in pornography and masterbation but this is a sign of Matt’s inner ego resisting God’s will for him to remain single and celibate. It doesn’t matter how many times Matt falls into sin (afterall, we all fall short of the Glory of God) just as long as Matt repents of these horrible sins and does not give into rejecting celibacy. All to often homosexuals refuse to humble themselves and refuse to follow God’s plan for celibacy in their lives by audaciously marrying heterosexual women to the sorrow of the wife and the detriment of the future children. May all heterosexuals find their calling to either marry or remain celibate and may all homosexuals learn their place both within society and in the Church as a celibate member of both communities. Amen!
I have been saved for about 8yrs and in the beginning, after the initial “high” settled the battle would begin again. One night during prayer I was asking again to be changed when God spoke to me and said, “Bryan I tell you what I told Paul. My grace is sufficient for thee. My strenght is made perfect in weakness.” I stopped asking to be changed and started asking for the ability to bear my cross with joy and peace. I failed many times and was forgiven because I was truly sorry for my sin. As I have grown in my relationship with Christ more and more is reveled to me. I believe that before I was born God saw where I would be able to bear this cross AND bring glory to His name. I also believe that people that suffer with these temptations are special to God. About 8 or 9 mths ago something happened to me, a blessing from the hand of God. I was given freedom from those feelings and desires! I don’t think about men or women in a sexual way and when I remember my past I’m truly disgusted, I hate that me and those feelings. I did nothing to deserve His grace and mercy, I’m not special, except that I’m saved by the blood of Jesus. In the back of my mind I know that God has used my life and will use my life to help others and I so want His will to be done. I don’t know how He used me before and I don’t know His plans for me to help others in the future, so I will be still and wait on Him.
GAY PEOPLE HATE CELIBACY??? I take great offense to this. AS I AM IN A SAME SEX relationship BUT we do NOT have SEX! I personally am asking God to take away ALL sexual wants…I don’t want them, I just want to love and be loved. What is wrong with that?! Man judges by outward appearance but God judges the heart…And I am praying that my heart is PURE, to please Him.
GAY PEOPLE HATE CELIBACY??? I take great offense to this. AS I AM IN A SAME SEX relationship BUT we do NOT have SEX! I personally am asking God to take away ALL sexual wants…I don’t want them, I just want to love and be loved. What is wrong with that?! Man judges by outward appearance but God judges the heart…And I am praying that my heart is PURE, to please Him.
I don’t know why this keeps posting here! My apologies! I am trying to post it to the person above you!
Thanks Matt, for refusing to move away from what God says. There are a lot of people with their own message, but we ackknowledge that we have no message of our own, if we did it would be tanted. It is in our best interest to remain perserve what God says, because only he has the authority as our creator to give us an unbiased account of how to live. Any other path we take is in vain.
“Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.” – 1 Cor 15:58
Excellent comment Tim! You speak in TRUTH! Scripture tells us plainly how we are to live are lives when faced with temptation especially in the area of sexual desire. It is not OUR message or interpretation of scripture but a clear UNBIASED testimony to the power of God’s Grace. Homosexuals need to learn once and for all that God’s “grace is sufficient” (2Corinthians 12:9) for them in their battle with sexual desire. The ONLY people for whom God’s Grace is NOT sufficient in battling sexual desire is in the case of heterosexuals “who burn in the flesh.” (1 Corinthians 7:6-9). We, heterosexuals, have sexual desire that can NOT be quelled by God’s Grace necessarily hence we NEED marriage. We NEED an outlet (i.e. marriage) to exercise our sexual desires without restraint. Homosexuals must learn to accept their supposed “plight” of celibacy and let us (heterosexuals) have our peace in marriage. Homosexuals are so biased where as we heterosexuals are UNBIASED. Glory to God!
What?
Mike, I don’t know where you are coming from, but it sure is NOT from the Grace of God that you speak. There is no compassion or understanding of God’s wisdom in your so-called learned ways of the Lord.
I’ve was also once in the homosexual life, and since my Good and Gracious Lord opened my eyes of understanding to His Truth that homosexuality is sin and a lie from the pit of hell. I knew the Lord was calling me to be single, and that I was given the grace to accept this life of singleness. Only those that are “called” by the Lord for a single life, can also fall upon hetrosexuals. Paul was not married, and he was never gay. Paul also teaches others it was better to be single and to serve the Lord, than to be married. So your so-called teaching that it is only for “ex-homosexuals” is not a biblical standing, you do error greatly in your understanding.
A word to those the Lord has called out and saved from the homosexual life, you don’t have to “struggle” to stay single, “if” you have been called the to the single life, our Lord will give you the Grace to live such a life. I’ve been saved for more than 30 years, and I’m very happy and content NOT beeing married. If that call is not upon your life, just trust in the Lord for His timing in sending you a wife. In all my years, I’ve seen too many Christians NOT wait upon the Lord for His perfect mate for them and ended up in disastrous marriages, which most have ended in separation and or divorce. This has been for both hetro and ex-homosexuals. Too many Christians are pushed into marriages by so-called ” Pastors”, and it has ended in too many tragedies.
Just rest and wait upon our Loving, caring Lord to provide you with all things pertaining to His Will and Purpose for your lives. Sometimes it will be bery tough to wait, but trust me, our Loving and Gracious Lord has OUR best interests at heart. He will NEVER fail us, nor forsake, even “if” we go ahead of Him. He will always guide us back to His Will and forgiveness will forever follow us, for He knows our human fallen nature, but we who have been called into His marvelous light will always have the Grace and Mercy of our God on our side, why? All because Jesus Christ stands before our Father in Heaven as our Subsitution, He represents everthing we are not, and that is why we are totally complete in HIM, and in HIM only. We have nothing within ourselves that we can stand upon. Jesus is our total RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION!. All the Glory goes to our Lord and Saviour! And when the Lord gives you the grace to understand that with your whole heart year after year, day after day, a rest and peace that passes all understanding will be yours. I know I’m still learning and understanding it. Our total dependence must be on and in our Lord, and nothing of the flesh is acceptable, and that also includes our Sanctification.
The Lord bless each and everyone of you.
The Lord bless you as well Cal and Amen to everything you said.
From what God says? or what Paul said once upon a time addressing a particular community of believers? To equate the two is a form of idolatry.
Why do you have no message of your own? Are you so intellectually bankrupt that you can’t think for yourself? “Have the courage to use your own reason,” is an exhortation of Immanuel Kant you ought to take to heart. Anything else, viz. all self-subordination/obedience to Authority and sacrificium intellectus, is an ignoble cop-out.
Matthew has his journey , you have yours. The evidence will be in the fruit. Your opening was a bit on the not-so-sweet side. Yes, Matthew is clearly intelligent. I knew when I read this section;
“He allegedly spent two years searching for the truth, but unfortunately he only came up with what we all could find on the first page of google if we searched “the bible and homosexuality”. Because of his grand intellect (he is a student at Harvard), I can see that through the broad range of fancy words and emotional manipulation used in his speech, he has bewildered many bible believing Christian’s. Thankfully, the Spirit dwells in every converted believer to lead us into all truth and that truth does not change just because one person with a high IQ and large vocabulary says differently.” that I was not going to get a humble attitude toward the presentation.
Yes, he did spend two years and thousands of hours researching it. If indeed we could all find this on a cursory Google search, why the enormous accolades?
I do work in this arena and have done so for almost six years. What I see in the presentation is not just words, not just organization of thought, I sense the Holy Spirit, yes, I do and an incredible spirit of humility. I think that is much of the draw. I have circulated this quite a bit. As I said, I see pretty much everything on this subject from both sides.
I would caution you to check your own attitudes in the introduction. As I said, I KNEW in the first sentences that I would resist what you wrote.
Perhaps we will meet at some point. I am going to the Exodus conference. I was in the room in January when Alan Chambers admitted that 99.9% of people do not change sexual orientation. I know too many former leaders of Exodus and quite a number of gay Christians. To discount the authenticity of their journey with God that is fruitful is interesting to me.
Matt–I hope one day you and Matthew might sit and speak. Or that you and I might sit and speak. I have changed my views on this issue and I am a Christian, and I love Jesus and my life is centered on Him and in Him. Dismissing those of us as not loving Jesus because we disagree with your interpretation of the Bible is offensive.
Kathy Baldock
CanyonwalkerConnections.com
Thank you, Kathy!
Kathy – Completely agree. I was sadden by the attitude I saw in this response. John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” I don’t have to understand every single verse or claim my interpretation is more true to follow Christ but I do have to love. Hard to see the love in this response.
When I think of what it must be like for you, as a Christian with homosexual feelings — I think of Paul and how he said he prayed three times for the thorn in his side to be removed.
Well, Matt, I’m going to pray that your ‘thorn’ be removed.
I feel that you would still be able to help people of hetero and homosexual understand the true meaning of forgiveness and regeneration through Jesus Christ.
Speaking as a mother of your generation, I’m so proud of you. And I don’t even know you.
Imagine how proud our Abba Father is!!
GOD bless you, Matthew.
You’re absolutely correct Julie! You speak Love in Truth! God gives us ALL a cross to bare in this life. Homosexuals must learn to submit to the will of God’s Law; that is, they must forever be restrained in celibacy. If I hear one more homosexual complain to me about how they think it’s “unfair” that they can’t have a loving, self-sacrificing partner to help them grow closer to the Lord as I have in my wife I will spontaneously combust! Behold the audacity of these homosexuals! Who do they think they are to make claims of “unfairness”? Life is not fair in general. Was Christ’s crucifixion “fair”? No, not at all. So gay people need to yield to Church Law once and for all! Practicing homosexuals have harmed society so much with their vile deseases. It is not enough that they sin amongst themselves but homosexuals have now infiltrated heterosexual marriage by way of posing as “straight men with same-sex inclinations”. The foundation of such a marriage is based on LIES: false attraction to the opposite sex! In such marriages the gay ‘husband’ lives a lie, becomes a lier and shares his piece with the Father of Lies (i.e. Satan) John 8:44. What an atrocity! They think they can marry our women in the hopes of “curing” their homsexuality. How self-seeking is that? But in reality they mock the marriage bed and continue to lust for men while denying their wifes an authentic, genuine desire for feminine beauty. How many more TED HAGARRD marriages’ are we willing to tolerate in the Church- it’s a mockery! I’m tired of gay people abusing holy matrimony by marrying our young women in the Church. Only if God completely removes ALL homosexual desire from a man will it be appropriate for the man to marry a women. Until then, the homosexual must live in patience and celibacy for it is the Will of God.
God bless!
Ok, is this a joke?
Gay people do not need to YIELD; only those called to celibacy must follow celibacy. This is not restricted to homosexuals, just as love and marriage are not restricted to heterosexuals. Shame on you, mike, for speaking of love in such a hateful and biast way. I hope your daughter grows up with a more open mind than you, in a world where people understand the true meaning of Christ’s word: To love and accept ALL, and make no judgements
Mike, please understand this is coming from a Christian and I am doing my best to say it in a loving manner, but your responses are not coming from the Holy Spirit. They are not true. I struggled with a homosexual past and God gave me the strength to overcome. I am married today for 13 years and have 3 amazing children. Please, I ask you as a fellow Christian. Do not speak of what you do not know. The single greatest reason unbelievers stay unbelieving is because of what they see come from believers. We are all human and all fall short, please accept in this you have, and stop. You are doing far more harm than good here.
Matt, praise God for you! I did not feel your letter was in any way disrespectful or hateful. You spoke truth in ways that I have only wished I could for many years. Thank you for standing for truth and for Christ.
One night during prayer I was asking again to be changed when God spoke to me and said, “Bryan I tell you what I told Paul. My grace is sufficient for thee. My strenght is made perfect in weakness.” I stopped asking to be changed and started asking for the ability to bear my cross with joy and peace.
I pity the creature who cannot live out his sexuality joyfully and with gratitude for the gift and benediction that it is. You have found healing through grace and forgiveness, but only after allowing yourself to be made sick. You call it “sin”–but there is nothing inherently sinful/immoral about sharing pleasure. Unless, of course, your sexuality is perverted [fetish-dependent, sadistic, joyless, loveless, etc.], in which case you might want to consider a good sex therapist rather than foreswearing erotic life altogether.
I don’t doubt you have found spiritual redemption and a life “in” Christ, for which your quotes give touching and beautiful testimony, but I would be wary of using it to suppress what is the first-nature of all creatures and the soil of all spiritual life, namely the power of touching and of the erotic.
As Paul himself wrote: “to the pure all things are pure.” That’s not a license to indulge in immoral or perverse sexual practices, but it should inspire you to reflect on why you feel your need for intimacy with another man is so unacceptable. Do your own experiences of nature’s bounty of bliss carry no weight? Is it not self-evident that sharing pleasure is a benediction? Having faith and being inspired by scripture ought not to be a warrant to become fanatical. Where is it written that you must accept every last word in the New Testament in order to be saved? Paul was a man with a mission and, as he presumed, a calling from God. But that doesn’t mean he stopped being a particular individual with culturally conditioned prejudices and hang-ups.
Judaism certainly does not vilify sexuality, only certain kinds of universally practiced sexuality [viz. homosexuality] for the purpose of setting their tribe apart from all others. All spiritual-philosophical traditions of the ancient world–from Buddha to Plato to Paul–acknowledged that there is a progression from sexual indulgence through sublimation to a ‘higher’ state of contemplation. Just read Plato’s Symposium. But there is a world of difference between being a slave to one’s impulses and using sexuality as a vehicle to explore oneself and one’s beloved when one so wills.
But if you believe Paul’s words are God’s words pure and simple, the appeal to the reality of an innocent sexuality, a purity of pleasure, the openness of authentically erotic transports, can only be temptation. To which I would reply: if your body is the temple of God, then make love accordingly.
The basic mistake is to interpret the high in terms of the low: the excesses and perversions of erotic love with its justified, necessary, optimal, life-giving, transformative expressions. So long as you parse the erotic and the spiritual along those lines there will always exist an ultimately self-defeating tension and source of needless suffering.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/theologians-find-vines-homosexuality-is-not-a-sin-thesis-not-persuasive-82341/#i7MHlFLLAk5cLTEm.01
Kristof,
I am happier now than I have ever been in my life. I’ve had relationships that lasted 10yrs but still knew sex with another man was and is a sin. Total submission to God and total adherence to His word brings happiness. Two men or two women sharing same sex a relationship is a fulfillment of the flesh. Paul said that the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh and we can not fulfill the desires of our flesh and please God. That’s Scripture too.
You asked about my own needs and desires and I say, Jesus said for us to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily and follow Him. We can not serve 2 masters because we will love one and hate the other. Fresh and salt water can not flow from the same fountian it is against nature. That brings me to our nature. We can’t trust our natures or feelings because they want what feels good right now!
So what if I have to fight against things sometimes until it makes me sick! For me that’s a small price to pay for eternity with my Lord and my God. A friend of mine asked me once what if when I get to heaven God says that I made it harder than it had to be and I replied, I would rather hear Him say that than to hear Him say this one thing you lacked. Depart from me ye that work iniquity I never knew you.
Wow Kristof,
That was profound, yet simple and straight forward. Unfortunately, it falls on deaf ears. Most here have very closed minds about God…. right and wrong, etc. It is intellectually and emtionally simple in many ways to live in a black and white world….. to not take risks…. to not search for your own answers. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I might just keep them for future reference.
Hi Matt,
Thanks for speaking out, and thanks for being so right-on in your expository remarks, “rightly dividing the Word of Truth”. There are so many baby Christians that are being influenced by arguments like Matthew Vine’s. They don’t know the scriptures and they are being duped into accepting the propaganda of the “gay-christian” movement. The Bible is clear, as you have so aptly explained. One thing I want to add is that the battle is in the mind. “As a man thinks, so is he”. Since we are all born sinners, our minds are trained to justify sinful behaviors. We look for ways to legitimize, legalize, moralize and get acceptance for what we know is sin. Only through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ can we become new creatures. As homosexuals buy into the lie that they were “born” gay and it is “natural” and/or “morally neutral” behavior, they need to understand that they are trading their real “birthright” for a lie. Satan is stealing God’s perfect plan for their lives.
Think of Esau who traded his “birthright” for a bowl of soup because his appetite was so out of control that he claimed he would “die” unless he got what he wanted; that he was famished to the point of death. (a parallel to sins of the flesh, sexual immorality) His flesh was crying out for satisfaction NOW. He couldn’t stand it! He traded is whole future for something to satisfy him in the moment. Out of him the Messiah would have come! In that one moment He despised God’s best and chose his appetite. His life went down a whole different path than God intended because of his choice to give into his flesh and believe what his mind was telling him. He lost God’s blessing and God’s will for his life and the blessing that would have come to all future generations that came from his lineage. We are in a horrendous battle. It is the battle for our minds, for our futures, and for the blessings that God wants to lead us into. This is serious. This isn’t a game. Satan would love to deceive us into thinking that sin is not sin and that our desires are above God’s Word and plan. He would love to deceive the whole world into believing his lies. The first commandment tells us to “love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength…” It’s really a question of who do we love? If we really love God more than ourselves, we will Trust Him that He will lead us into blessings that are so far above anything we could choose for ourselves, that it will blow our minds! We will trust His Word to mean what it says. The Bible is clear about homosexuality. God’s judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah was a judgement of mercy to future generations that would have been born into that society. The wages of sin, is more sin, and death! It doesn’t stop with one homosexual relationship. The perversion and deception just keeps going, until society is utterly eroded. After legalizing homosexuality, it will be pedophilia, then incest, then whatever. Ir’s a slippery slope headed for destruction. We need to wake up and understand that God sent His Son to set us free, not to leave us in bondage.
Thanks again, Matt, for not backing down. Thanks for the homework you have done in the Word. My prayers are with you because you are on the front lines of this battle. Keep on speaking out. There are some who will listen and be saved because of your witness.
Hi Shirl! May the Lord bless you for standing up for His Love! Homosexuals need to accept that they are not privy to the same options and concessions that we heterosexuals are granted by the Bible. God offers marriage to us heterosexuals because He know’s that sexual temptation is difficult for us to bare.
I’m tired of homosexuals complaing to me that there are no ‘support groups’ for them to battle homosexual desire whereas there are an abundance of “Straight” support groups for guys who lust for women.
Why the discrepency? It’s simple: Cuz we straight men NEED the support but not the homosexual. God’s Grace is sufficient for the gay man or otherwise God would have allowed there to be more support groups for them.
I’m tired of homosexuals complaining to me that they feel isolated when they can not voice their struggles with temptation casually at the dinner table as their hetero counterparts casually mention sexual temptations to others.
Why the difference? It’s simple: Cuz we straight men NEED the support but God’s Grace is sufficient for gay people or otherwise God would not have allowed homosexual temptation to be taboo.
I’m tired of homosexuals complaining to me that there are a plethora of stories in the Bible of straight people fighting and conquering Natural sexual temptation but there are no good examples of former gay men who conquered Unnatural sexual attractions in order to emulate.
Why the supposed imbalance? It’s simple: Because we heterosexuals NEED to read stories of straight men and women who battled NATURAL sexual temptation. The homosexual does not need as much encouragment since God’s Grace is sufficient for them or else God would have allowed stories of ex-gay people in the Bible as well as throughout ANCIENT church history to be recorded in order to encourage gay people.
Gay people are so demanding in every respect ranging from sexual equality to marriage equality.
Practicing homosexuals are truly an abomination!
May God keep us in His Word of Truth always!
Twisted.
Mike, you do so ignorantly error from the truth. You state; “Homosexuals need to accept that they are not privy to the same options and concessions that we heterosexuals are granted by the Bible. God offers marriage to us heterosexuals because He know’s that sexual temptation is difficult for us to bare.”
Where is the scripture to back up this mis-leading, false teaching?
God is not a respector of persons, and to think that “heterosexuals” are treated “special” is not who or what God represents, nor teaches. There are no special rules for this “type” and that “type”, Jesus stands as our representative without bias or prejudice! I don’t know from whence you received this mis-information, but it is better to keep your mouth closed, when you know NOT what you speak. I pray and hope you are not a teacher or a pastor of God’s word.
In His Eternal Love,
its people like you Mike, who go around and Judge people that will have to bear the wroth of God. Shame on you for even suggesting you live a christian life with such hateful thoughts. we can only pray for you
Not all gay people ask for the right to marry. Some gay people are celibate. You sound like you’re better than gay people because you’re heterosexual. You wish that all gay people would be celibate; how about you teaching gay people how to be celibate. Where are the Christian classes on how to practice celibacy?
Have you ever looked at the long list of abominations in the bible? You should. It’s a long and all-encompassing list. There are most likely 5-10 that pertain to you. You’re an abomination too sir.
With all do respect, Matthew Vines RESEARCHED this all. VERY thoroughly. I would say, then, that he has a very good understanding of the Bible by now
I agree. He’s no dummy!
Absolutely FABULOUS reply Shirl! I’m copying this to save and share! Today is March 27 and my Facebook is rampant with gay marriage supporters.
You are right – it is a slippery slope and most importantly A NARROW GATE!!
Oh Matt. My brother in Christ. I went through an Exodus ministry. But I ultimately found truth around sexual orientation when I finally began to rightly divide the Word of Truth. I trust that you are at peace and that you are experiencing the abundant life that Jesus promised. I know for me, the peace, love, joy, and abundance finally manifested when I accepted who I was made to be, stopped “kicking against the pricks” (to use a Pauline imagery), and began living my life with integrity, honesty, and authenticity. I truly hope you are doing the same. If you ever come to a place where you need to talk to a gay Christian, my door is always open. Please know that. Blessings on your journey Matt.
Just curious:
+Jesus (GOD) lived a celibate life.
+St.Paul (MAN) lived a celibate life.
+The Word (SCRIPTURE) elevates celibacy over marriage ["I wish everyone were as I" -St Paul]
+God (GRACE) is more powerful than Anything (i.e. sexual desire)
…Then there is no NECESSITY to lose one’s virginity and consequently no need for sex:
The Messiah has already come; no need to have sex to ensure the arrival of the prophesied ‘Christ’.
Marriage is STILL valid since we can use a spouse as a ‘helper’ but not as a ‘sex partner’.
Marriage can STILL have kids by adopting children not conceiving children.
For us Christians, our “Helper” has now become GOD’S GRACE.
But some will say, “What if we all stopped having sex? What would happen to mankind?!”
The answer is SIMPLE: The second-coming of Christ would follow immediately and we would go to heaven where we “are NOT given in marriage and where [we] are neither male nor female but are like the angels.” (Matthew 22:23-34)
Jesus offers marriage in the NEW Testament as an exception (not a rule) to mankind due to our hard hearts. It is because we are Hard-of-Heart that marraige is offered to us as a “Plan B”.
Sex is NOT a NECESSITY for Anyone. Nothing can keep us away from the highest form of purity both in body and in soul (i.e. celibacy) because God’s “Grace is Sufficient.” (2 Corinthians 12:9)
Stick any human being alone on a deserted island with ample food and water and I can assure you that not a single one of them will die due to their virginity or lack of having sex – NOT ONE!
We preach as though we “have a form of Godliness, but deny the POWER thereof.” 2 Timothy 3:5
Either god’s grace is subject to SEXUAL DESIRE or sexual desire is subject to GOD’S GRACE.
So come on Heterosexuals!
We must stop making excuses for ourselves!
Let’s join the Homosexuals in CELIBACY!
….or does a fleeting orgasm all of a sudden hold more value than the sufficieny of GOD’s GRACE?
“All things are permissable but not all things are beneficial.” (1 Corithians 10:23)
Ok, Mike, I get it; but your sarcasm is off the wall.
“If you do not like what you see in the mirror do not break the mirror rather change yourself.”
Great comment!
Mike has a point. I’m not sure all heterosexuals will agree with it, though.
It always makes me smile when I put together those words of Paul and the fact that many churches have a sort of “propaganda” of marriage – with all the necessary scriptural proof, of course!
Speaking of marriage – “gay marriage” in particular. My viewpoint is: in this case, the legal aspect must be divided from religion at all, and therefore gay marriage must be legally approved just as heterosexual marriage. It’s only a fair thing to do, because devorce is legalized even though religion disapproves. In other words, legalized marriage is a secular thing and religion should stay away. Heterosexuals and gays must be equal legally, because otherwise is discrimnation.
Protests like “this sodomy will call God’s wrath upon us” are totally irrelevant in this case. First, because “sodomy”, meaning homosexuality, is not the reason God destroyed Sodom (that’s where I agree with Matthew Vines). Second, it is so hypocritical to believe that homosexuality is the only thing that would unleash God’s wrath, while all the other glaring sins and vices blooming around – and in churches too – would not do that.
Hey Matt. Jon here. Thanks for your website and for your commitment to your walk with Lord. I was touched by matthew’s video, and subsequently came across your blog, intrigued by the comments left. In your response, you talked about the clobber passages, even citing that they are an easy google search, but you totally skirted his heartfelt and refreshingly humble points about good fruit and bad fruit and the inner turmoil that many gay Christians experience while accepting Christ’s UNconditional love, and at the same time seeking to alter their sexual orientation. How does your heart respond to those points? Do you believe that the life of a gay Christian was not created with the capacity or potential for companionship/romantic love/commitment? Until 6 months ago I had spent the last 10 years in some form of reparative therapy, be it private counseling, support groups, Christian Psychiatrists etc. The amount of anxiety, depression, panic and oppression that grew as a direct result of holding tightly to the belief that God desired me to “overcome” my sexual desires became so UNBEARABLE that, as Matthew stated, it became undeniable that this was BAD FRUIT and not of the Lord. You said that Matthew’s “extreme perversion of scriptures would be the death of him.” I am humbly and sincerely telling you that it was this same-sex therapy and false belief system that almost was, and surely would have been the death of me. Fortunately I have a Savior who loves me as I am, and chose me before I chose Him! Thank Jesus for that!!
Your summary is perhaps the most authentic and accurate of the posts I’ve read thusfar.
Jonathan,
I agree that your summary is the most authentic and the most faithful to Scripture that I have read, particularly around surrendering to Christ and His plan for your life as a gay man, fearfully and wonderfully made. Thank you for your strong witness! I too went through an Exodus ministry. I too was in deception to the false teaching that homosexuality is a sin and that celibacy was my only option. False teaching like this kills. It kills the spirit and produces bad fruit, certainly not the fruit of the Spirit. Ever since I found this blog, I carry a heavy heart with me. A heavy heart for all these wonderful people who are deceived by this teaching. You said it right Jonathan – my life was UNBEARABLE as I lived under that cloud that said homosexuality is wrong. Once I was set free to live and love and journey in an authentic manner true to how I was made to be, the joy, peace, and comfort of the Spirit was so real and full in my life. It was palpable. As I’ve said in earlier posts, the life of faith is not struggle free. To use a Pauline expression, we all “war against the flesh”. Absolutely we crucify the flesh as we journey along. The big deception and logic jump is that people think that fighting against living fully as a gay person is one of those “wars against the flesh”. NO! That’s the same to me as saying “I’m trying not to be heterosexual”. Or “I’m trying not to be Caucasian – being Caucasian is my cross to bear”. What?!? Doesn’t even make sense. Nor does the illogical analogy that being gay and living in integrity as a gay man is part of our sin nature with which we struggle. We DO struggle with our sin nature, but homosexuality is not one of those struggles. There are PLENTY of struggles that we all endure as we seek to be more like Christ. But being gay is not one of them. My concern is that at the end of their life, these guys are going to look back and see a life wasted on bad doctrine. That they look back, and see that they could have found lasting peace. That they could have lived in the truth of integration and wholeness instead of compartmentalization and separation. That they could have found a partner. They could have found a church home together to grow and worship. They could have formed a family and grown old together with someone they love and who loves them. But instead they were led astray by false teaching that deprived them of one of the most blessed gifts that God gives. It wasn’t God or the Bible or Jesus who was asking them to be celibate and live in inner agony – it was false doctrine. It was a form of Godliness that denies the power thereof. My partner and I are celebrating 17 years together. And I am eternally grateful for the gift of my partner. I am pleading with you Matt and others that you open your hearts and minds. That you not “white knuckle it” the rest of your lives with a yoke of bondage that is not of God, but that you let the Scriptures speak plainly and honestly and that you listen to the witness of the Spirit who resides in your spirit. I pray that the peace of Christ which passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
Dear James,
I am very sorry to hear that you had to suffer so much condemnation growing up. I got bullied a bit at school by other boys but academically I was so far above them that I simply discounted them as idiots and mostly ignored them. Although my family certainly wouldn’t have approved of my being gay they would have accepted me and simply kept on praying for me – which is what they did when I eventually told them. In fact, when I told my dad I was gay he cried because I had felt I couldn’t tell him as a kid.
At university I was the first person to come out as openly gay at medical school – this in Afrikaans South Africa. Very conservative in a military kind of way. I was terrified of the response I was going to receive – had visions of the professors flunking me at the slightest provocation. That never happened. In fact – I became somewhat of an celebrity. Me and some friends of mine started a ‘counter culture’ newspaper – I was in charge of the ‘pink pages’. It was a huge hit. Fame didn’t really sit well with me because I’m quite an introvert but my quirkyness has been my salvation most my life. If the crowds got too much I just said something off the wall and made my escape while they tried to disgest. I also never left home without my best buddy, a huge German dude with an unlikely afro – I simply hid behind him most of the time. They simply don’t make them like they used to.(As I’m such an introvert, when I say crowds, please read about 3 people.)
In terms of sex I was perhaps a bit unusual for most gay men that age. I’m pretty goodlooking (if I say so myself) and had plenty of opportunities what with living in Cape Town, gay capital of South Africa – and yet my clothes resolutely clung to my body. I kissed my first man at 19 – it was exciting but mostly I remember that his breath tasted ‘tinny’ due to the brand of cigarette he smoked. (I was a smoker at the time as well. He smoked Benson & Hedges – a brand I thoroughly disapproved of.) I went to gay clubs alone mostly, danced a bit, had a few beers (wasn’t much of a drinker and didn’t use drugs – those days) and generally fled into the lesbians toilet when someone was trying to corner me (much to both parties disgust I’m sure). I didn’t dare go to the male toilets – there were holes between the cubicles and I honestly didn’t have time to slap away groping hands when all I wanted to do was have a pee.
My great love came my way when I was 21. He was 19 and well – drop dead gorgeous. I met him in the parking lot of the block of flats I was living in. Nothing sleazy – he was helping someone move. I was head over heels – and so was he. We dated till I finished university and had to work in a different city. Long distance did it’s work and he broke up with me after a few months. I was heart broken. For years.
I write all this to you so you can have a little idea of who I am – although I’m now 37 and much, much has happened in the meantime. As I always tell people – at least they can’t say I’m boring. So in short, I was pretty sexy, had a brilliant career in medicine ahead of me (although working with all the AIDS in South Africa nearly killed me emotionally due to all the death), had fantastic friends – what more could I want? I had tasted the lips of a young princeling, stars collided, galaxies imploded – the earth moved with an embarrassed look on its face. I know that kind of bolt. It’s called infatuation and lust.
That’s not the bolt I’m talking about. The bolt I’m talking about is this one:
Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!” And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts.”
(Isa 6:2-5)
So here I stand. A man changed in a moment of awe and trembling. My aim is not to cause you misery. Really. I wish I was wrong and could tell you differently, that you could go ahead and live your life as you choose. But I can’t. Unfortunately the Bible does not allow for me to make judgements on how I feel. It’s a matter of Truth. I preach this Truth not only to us gay folk, but also to them straight people who think they have it all figured out but are simply blinded by different deceptions. And yes, I am starting to become unpopular. But that is what I expect because that is what Jesus said would happen. Should I compromise because of that? No. I can’t. I lived a lie for too long to now go back to it.
I would rather know the Truth and suffer than believe a lie and be happy. And that is the strangest thing. My conversion really started precisely 40 days before I said ‘I do’ to Jesus with a prophetic dream. At that time I didn’t realize that it was a prophetic dream or what it meant – all I knew was that the moment I woke up I simply had to write it down immediately, something I had never done before. In fact, I had kind of stopped dreaming for some years before then. (I do know what the dream meant now.) In the weeks that followed I started drawing a picture (never drew before) which I ‘knew’ was to be called ‘The Key’. It is rather interesting to be sure. Maybe I’ll put it up online sometime – who knows maybe someone will still unravel more of it’s secrets than I have already. After that I felt compelled to do a drawing of an angel bound in a dungeon with flames shooting out of his head. But the chains were coming loose and the angel was smiling. Next I drew Job sitting under a tree – and it was during this picture that Jesus called me.
During this time I didn’t have a clue what was going on with me or where I was heading. I for sure didn’t in my wildest imagination imagine that at the end of the process I’d be a Christian. I mean, I didn’t even believe in God! The whole period was a bit dreamy and peaceful – very strange. But during that whole period I went for long (2-3 hour) walks every day – and kept having the strangest conversations in my head. I would get questions like this:
If you could choose to know the truth and suffer, or believe a lie and be happy, which would it be?
If you could win the Euromillions but as price a nameless child in Africa will die, which would you choose?
These two questions I remember clearly. There were more but I haven’t really thought about that time in a while. But what I’m telling you is for real – I am not making it up. As you might have guessed I chose correctly. You see – I believe we all get to make a choice at some point in our lives. Every last person on this planet. Most people simply just don’t notice when they are making it. But we all get to choose.
So when I speak to other people I really couldn’t care less about myself. Pride has been wrung out of me through a long process involving many, many tears. It creeps back but I have two lacrimal glands always willing to put forward more tears in order to deal with my errancy. I have learned (and am still learning) the true meaning of selfless love, patience, forgiveness. Slowly I am working my way through:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
(Gal 5:22-23)
You know – I am quite scared sometimes to ask God to teach me things because the Holy Spirit doesn’t mess around. What He teaches is engraved into my heart – forever. And most of the time the process of learning is so unexpected that I am left thoroughly freaked out by it. Run away screaming, arms akimbo kind of thing. Like a penguin – only faster. But then afterwards I look back – and cry. Really. (I do rather cry a lot these days – probably because I never cried before. There are few things as sweet as tears of joy and gratitude to the Lord.) I cry because I simply can not believe how yet another blemish had been wiped from my soul – in some way that is beyond my understanding. And that the Creator of the universe is bothering with the likes of me! Me! And so I ask for more. I ask to be broken, and broken, and broken and I cry tears of anguish and I sing with joy and I praise God as I take each little step closer to what He wants me to be. As I start becoming someone I never thought I could possibly become. And if I have to swim there in a river of tears – then so be it. I do not say this lightly because God has honoured all such requests that I have made – and tears there have been aplenty. (And me scolding myself for being such and idiot to once again get myself into this situation, knowing full well that when it’s over I’ll just do it again. I suppose it must be like having a baby. It’s agony but the joy after is so overwhelming that you just forget the pain – and do it again.)
Do you understand what I’m saying? I want to SHAKE people and tell them to stop fooling around with God and TRULY repent! Because when you do He will do such a work in your life that will leave the world trembling as they behold the Glory of the Almighty God in action. And it will hate you for it. For the darkness of this world does not comprehend the light. But to some you will be a sweet perfume and to them you will breathe life and freedom. What do I care about the things of this world? How can anything compare to THIS? It is all dust to me.
I’m nothing special. I have but little strength. No jokes. But my Lord Jesus Christ! He is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings and to Him every knee will bow! And right this minute He is saying:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
(Rev 3:20-21)
Open that door. I double dare you.
With love,
Sarel
Oops dropped that in the wrong place. One of these days I’ll get the hang of it rofl!
Curt/Jonathan – Thank you so much for your words. I strongly believe that we ALL must endure our share of trials — but BEING GAY IS NOT A TRIAL! Gay people must endure the same trials and temptations to sin as straight people do. It is my hope that people can open their hearts and let go of the hatred they have towards homosexuality.
Thank you for your testimony. Yours was thoughtful, heartfelt and gracious. I find Matt’s writing to be bitter and spiteful.
“I am in no way singling out Matthew Vines or trying to attack him personally…”
Uh…really? Certainly seems that way. You arrogance is absolutely astounding, and your reasoning completely unsound. Your time would be better spent searching your own heart and seeking God’s full potential in your life–whether you choose to live as gay or straight–instead of writing this blather. Speaking out of both sides of your mouth caters to the lowest-common denominator of people. Surely you can more sensitively (and intelligently) articulate your views instead of spouting off Jerry Falwell-style talking points.
I somewhat agree with this. I am seeing the edited version, but based on some internet comments (here and elsewhere), I assume there was some inner conflict showing up in his words. I believe that the Bible can be interpreted as many ways as it can be written. God, and God’s word come from within our spirit, and our spirit is what interprets the Word. We spend so much time arguing over who is right, that we forget we are all individuals who see life on an individual basis. Follow the rules that are obvious and love and accept everyone, for everyone is a child of God. You don’t have to like what others do, but to accept it only means you acknowledge them and love them in spite of. All of this is my interpretation, my opinions, and what works for me and my family. I find it is so much more peaceful than worrying constantly that I am not doing God’s Will. My God lets me know if I am not doing the right things, so I just live. (And let live)
Thank you for your words of wisdom.
Hello Matt,
Thanks for your testimony, and everything you share.
I myself was living for many years in the gay party scene in the city i live in.
I plunged into a very promiscuous life style. orgies, did drugs .
Before that i served God , and was part of a christian ministry , because i chose to engage in a sexual encounter with another man, i became entangled in lots more, this sex act pulled me into more sex acts and eventually into breaking with the church, telling myself al kinds of excuses to live out my gay feelings.
now i do not have time to get into details , so below is a very summarized version of my testimony.
in summarized version it might seem a bit ” Simple ”
from when i was a small child gay attraction. since i became aware of those feelings i prayed to God to change me and to take away those feelings. That never happened. i NEVER chose to have those feelings, they were there.
Now one of the excuses i used, to finally give into my gay feelings was ” God did not take away the gay feelings , so He probably has made me like this ” another drive to go and do what i felt to do, was the anger i had inside of me towards the straight brothers and sisters i had , who told me that being gay was a choice. while i knew they were wrong .
(I still get angry from the stupidity of some bro’s and sisters that seem to know everything about homosexuality. and since they cannot explain where it comes from , they say it is a choice.)
So i plunged into the gay scene had a partner , and desperatly held on to the thought that God made this way , and that He even approved of my lifestyle.
But still i kept seeking for the ultimate answer : I studied books about the subject, one of those books is called ” What the bible really says about homosexuality ” from Daniel a Helminiac. And while reading it , i found the arguments totall bullshit. it was twisting and turning bible passages and unleashing human reason upon scripture. So that book could not give me the final answer.
I started to search my heart. the very depths of my heart asking the question ” Do you really believe that God approves what you are doing ? i hated it , but i had to admit that deep in my heart there was NO PEACE. and i am sure that every gay christian that holds on the the gay affirming theories , and lives out his’her feelings has no peace in the very depths of his / her heart.
God never let go of me when i lived in the “”scene” . He has always blessed me ,
i work as a stage artist , and at a certain moment a Christian theatre company invited me to become a part of their cast. They knew me and that i am gay. But there was no condemnation .
they invited me and welcomed me , and never ever showed me hatred etc.
God showed me His love through them, so that touched my heart, and that made me think , and i started seeking God .
and He told me ” The Truth will set you free. ”
So i started reading the bible again , and i committed my life to God . and slowly in my heart i felt that , what the bible tells us about homosexuality should be interpreted litterally as it is written .
IT is Sin.
I turned away from my gay lifestyle. and surrendered everything to God and gave it all i the hands of Jesus.
I live celibate and seek God every day because that is my life line that keeps me holding on.
And i know i am doing the Right thing ! and there is a PEACE beyond understanding inside of me.
God speaks to me and He touches my heart. and in my Heart i KNOW that His word is true.
We live in a broken world, and we all are broken…
Gods Grace comes into our brokeness and delivers us.
I strive to live through His Spirit. to listen to God and obey His word
For me this is utter deliverance. i am so glad that God is patient with me.
I have made so many wrong choices in my life and still God is so patient and so loving.
Christ gave his life for us, ………..so why should i not crucify my feelings to serve Him …
it is just a little sacrifice compared to what Jesus gave up for us ..out of Love for us.
My life is changing, i sense Gods power over my life.
My desire is to share my testimony , and be an instrument in Gods hands.
i will think of you in my prayers
bless u
greetings from The Netherlands
Boris,
PRAISE GOD THAT YOU FINALLY STOPPED REJECTING CELIBACY!
Now, to all my fellow Heterosexual readers who read Boris’ post:
+ Are YOU willing to choose the beauty of celibacy as your homosexual bretheren MUST accept celibacy or are you going to exchange beloved virginity for an orgasm?
+ Are YOU willing to choose the ‘angelic life’ of celibacy as your homosexual bretheren MUST accept celibacy or are you going to exchange virginity for a “bowl of lentil soup” (Genesis 25:30-34)?
+ Are You willing to choose the sufficiency of God’s Grace as your homosexual bretheren Must accept the sufficiency of Grace or are you going to exchange Grace for a sexual marital partner?
Boris said it eloquently, “It [celibacy] is just a little sacrifice compared to what Jesus gave up for us ..out of Love for us.”
So what is it going to be Heterosexuals? (the homosexuals are watching)
Sex? or Virginity?
“For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, And With The MEASURE YOU Use, It Will Be MEASURED TO YOU.” (Matthew 7:2)
Mike, I just need to ask if you are for real or is this a joke?
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Troll.
Mike is the dumbest person I have ever heard of I’m glad you aren’t reproducing.
I agree will. I do not agree with Mikes comments in the slightest (other than he believes homosexuality is sin to be repented of…I obviously believe that). I don’t know where he gets his ideas from….but it’s not the bible.
will & Matt:
Behold, how we heterosexuals resort to name calling (i.e. “dumbest person”) when someone else exposes the incompletness of our ‘solution’ (i.e. celibacy & prayer) for the homosexual’s predicament. [We heterosexuals are the first to accuse the homosexuals of resorting to petty name calling when the homosexuals can't justify their position efficiently.]
Indeed, ‘celibacy’ and ‘prayer’ is the practical daily solution for the homosexual’s predicament.
Yet in the same breathe we will reject this solution when it is imposed on us heterosexuals. In fact, we will then call our ‘solution’ (i.e. celibacy & prayer): “dumb”, “unbiblical”, “twisted”, “a joke”.
“If you do not like what you see in the mirror do not break the mirror but rather change yourself”
God bless!
Mike..u r a complete idiot and now im convinced yu are actually being used by the enemy to spread hate, create confusion and basically thwart all of Gods plan for healing peoples hearts…I feel sorry for you more than being upset.
Will, your comment made me laugh! Needless to say, I support your assessment!
“By their FRUITS ye shall know them” (Matthew 7: 15)
I have been called “the dumbest person”.
I have been called “a complete idiot”.
I have been called “an enemy to spread hate”.
I have been called “a thwarter of God’s plan”.
…all within the last 5 minutes by my fellow heterosexuals (not the homosexuals). Yet no heterosexual has taken a moment to expose my error point by point but rather resorted to name calling.
Wow, we heterosexuals don’t like tasting our own medicine that we impose on our fellow homosexuals now do we?
God bless!
Ok, u want point by point?
Point A. There is so much arrogance, misquoting scripture, and blatant ignorance exuding from your posts that it would be impossible and not worth the energy to give you a complete bullet point summary.
Point B.The litmus test that John said will prove to the world that we are the disciples of Jesus is by the display of love we have for each other. John 13:34 “a new commandment I give until u, that he love one another; as I have loved u, that ye also love one another. By THIS shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
There is a loving way to admonish someone of have an adult debate, but there clearly is not an ounce of love in your texts. It’s easy to tell if someone’s response is from a loving caring place, and an arrogant self righteous place. Yours is obviously the latter.
Point C. And btw, your point that homosexuals shouldnt try to steal Christian women by marrying them and ruining their lives, when they should accept a call of celibacy is absolutely UNBIBLICAL and therefore, FALSE DOCTRINE. Show me in the bible where u came up with that lie!!!
Jesus himself warns against false teachers and believers creating division in the church body and causing others to stumble. Matthew 18:6 If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me- to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
My friend, from one brother to another, you are creating confusion, chaos and hurt on this website with your words. Pride cometh before a fall.
Behold, how we heterosexuals rage against a fellow brother in the Lord who is offering the same medicine to the heterosexual that the heterosexual imposes on the homosexual:
For what do you accuse me of?
For agreeing with Saint Paul that celibacy is considered an angelic lifestyle as he (St. Paul) also ‘wished that every man on earth were as he’, meaning celibate? (1 Corinthians 7:7) Afterall, we will not be given in marriage in heaven; nor will we be male nor female but as the angels- hence the ‘angelic lifestyle’. (Matthew 22:23-34). This is factual SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
But what do you accuse me of?
For claiming that our pure Lord lead a celibate life on Earth as did John the Baptist who the Lord, himself, said was the greatest Prophet to ever live not to mention that God chose a Virgin to give birth to His Son. This is factual SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
Yet what do you accuse me of?
For saying that mingling our spirit with God’s GRACE in prayer is far sweeter than mingling our spirit in sexual intercourse with a spouse. Do you really contest that? If the Lord appeared to you in bodily form right now would you reject his physical loving embrace in exchange for a spouse’s sexual embrace? Did not King Solomon experience all things (including orgasms) and yet still proclaimed, “Vanity of vanities, ALL is vanity” (Ecclesiastes 1:14). This is factual SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
So what do you accuse me of?
For promoting the holiness of marriage within the Church while maintaining that sex in marriage is NOT an absolute NECESSITY in order for the marriage to succeed. Have you not considered our wounded soldiers returning from war who have had ALL their lower extermities blown off and are still in HAPPY marriages because they made the CHOICE to not make SEX the bond that unites their marriage but rather their VOWS. Ecclesiates 1:14 says, “For a triple-braided cord is not easily broken”; meaning with the husband on the left, the wife on the right and SCRIPTURE in the middle- nothing can break such a cord (Ecclesiates 1:14). It is not SEX that keeps the marriage from ‘breaking’ but rather the VOW (i.e. Scripture). This is factual SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
Again, what do you accuse me of?
For saying that a homosexual MUST live in celibacy as opposed to engaging in meaningless, promiscuous sex with other men or women. This is factual SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
So what do you accuse me of?
For stating that marraige can be used as an alternative ‘outlet’ for the heterosexual who wishes to willingly CHOOSE to throw away his/her VIRGINITY in exchange for a momentary reprieve from sexual desire. (1 Corinthians 7) This is factual SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
For what do you accuse me of?
For defending the authentic confession of genuine attraction to the opposite sex.
Is not a successful marriage based on 3 principles:
+ INTELLECTUAL attraction (meaning both parties relate intellectually)
+ SPIRITUAL attraction (meaning both parties share the same religious beliefs)
+ SEXUAL attraction (meaning both parties are physically stimulated for one another)
If either of these 3 principles is out of balance then unrest is created in the marriage.
Is it not enough that we deny the homosexual a partner in life but we now wish to bring in more people into the mix by allowing women to marry homosexuals who do not find their feminine beauty sexually stimulating. Are we really willing to allow innocent children to be the fruits of this anemic ‘marriage’? Living in TRUTH is honorable. Living in DECEPTION is Sinful. Defending a TRUTHFUL life is factual SCRIPTURE, not opinion.
CONCLUSION:
Funny how we heterosexuals see SCRIPTURE so ‘black and white’ when it comes to denying homosexuals an outlet (i.e. marriage) yet when we heterosexuals place ourselves under the SAME Scriptural scrutiny all of a sudden we interpret ‘shades of gray’ that accomodate excuses to avoid us having to struggle for celibacy alongside our Homosexual Christian bretheren.
God Bless!
None of these guys are heterosexuals Mike. Neither are you. I won’t call you dumb. Deluded maybe. Hypocritical most definitely. Dumb? Well…maybe.
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As a gay man who has made the same decision as Matt I can do no more but agree with his assessment of what the Bible says. I do not believe in doing mental gymnastics to try fit the Word of God into what we want said – there is quite enough of that going around already in the world. All I can say is that from the moment God revealed Himself to me I immediately and without any doubt whatsoever knew that I had to leave my gay life behind. Thus the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces.
As for Mike: Yes I am committed to a life of celibacy. Yes, God’s grace is indeed sufficient for me. You are however doing nothing but causing division with your comments here. You are also embarrassing your straight brothers and sisters. When we feel moved to comment on other people’s lives, always with the intention to correct, and with humble kindness, being aware of our own short comings, let us stick with what the Bible says and not add to it. Let us do all things for edification and avoid causing strife.
sarelpetrus, I whole-heartedly agree with you and from your earlier comment I had to say, yes, make certain you’re prepared for what you ask the Lord to teach you, especially patience–can we just say cinder blocks on the head? Ouch!
I just have to say that I am moved and inspired by your testimony. Your msg is a powerful one and has planted a renewed desire in my heart towards holiness and obedience. May God continue to bless you and Matt both as he uses each of you to carry the heavy burden and joyful freedom of His truth in a fallen world.
Wish I could just respect the decision of those who feel the need to renounce the physical expression of love on the basis of their [earnest but misguided] notion that obedience to the will of God requires them to put all utterances of the New Testament on equal footing, while considering insignificant the fact that Jesus Christ had nothing to say on the subject of homosexuality, but quite a lot about loving one’s neighbor as oneself, forgiveness, being non-judgmental, etc.. He was most intolerant not of sinners, but of certain by-the-letter religious fanatics–the Pharisees. I look in vain for the spirit of Christ and his joyful tidings in the discussions about sexual sin.
“The” Bible exists as it does because councils of mortal men convened and decided which writings in circulation were to be included.To equate the words of the bible with the will of God, as if he had spoken only at one particular period of history and then for all times; as if the revelation of God could be reduced to the Synoptic Gospels, Paul’s epistles, or any piece of literature, is to substitute the words of mortals for His own inscrutable will. It is to absolutize what should be a guide critically appropriated. Paul was not Christ but an interpreter of his teachings. There is reason to believe Christ would have rejected some of the things Paul taught. Besides, it’s not as if Paul developed some entirely consistent doctrine; it is, for example, possible to use some statements of Paul to criticize others. If, that is, one is capable of thinking critically and creatively. Use your head to think, instead of just bowing it obediently, smugly convinced that accepting every last syllable of the NT is the key to your salvation.
The unthinking, a-historical appropriation of Paul’s letters offends him who has learned to form his own judgments and think critically about all matters under the sun, even sacred texts. But alas, such an approach requires one to question authority, not the sacrifice of reason in the name of obedience. But it is perhaps naive to expect a believer to substitute reason [philosophy] for revelation, the disjunction operative here. For the believer ultimately throws up his hands and declares: it is written. That is his faith and finality. It’s also, from a philosophical perspective, a cop-out.
At least Lutherans and Episcopalians recognize that the decisive thing about erotic life is the context: that spiritual and physical elements synergistically efficacious in committed partnerships cry out to be blessed. Purity of heart is what counts, not x, y, or z sex acts in abstraction. Otherwise one interprets the high [love] in terms of the low [sex], which is the opposite of the spiritual interpretation of a spiritual relationship. Look beyond the letter of gender and genitalia, to the spirit of erotic intimacy. If that means you must reject aspects of the Christian tradition, so be it. The alternative is to ossify the scriptures and to live in bondage to an understanding of the sexual that is historically arbitrary, culturally specific/limited, and all-too-inhuman.
Spirituality is not strengthened by cruelty. But try convincing a masochist that his suffering is superfluous. Sad but true, the need to suffer, to impose suffering upon oneself, to inflict cruelty, is and has been an integral part of the spirituality certain kinds of Christians. But is the point of turning back, of repenting, just to increase suffering? God will not love you any more because you deprive yourself. Or do you imagine Him to be some kind of sadist, the analogue of your own conscience? God is not your super-ego pathology writ large! nor Paul’s…
Abstinence is NOT spiritual poverty. Tempting as it is to cope with sexual failures, trauma, maladjustment, social ostracism, etc., by wrapping them in the cloak of some ascetic spirituality. It’s the ultimate compensation for a failure that can only be addressed through erotic participation: through more sex, but a higher, purified kind. Otherwise you are just a sick animal deluding itself about its ‘purity.’ “To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.” Epistle to Titus.
The repudiation of sexuality is both unnecessary and in its own way perverted. It is a sickness of the instincts and contributes nothing to finding beatitude, fulfilling God’s will, partaking of grace, etc. Unless, of course, you think it does. But to think it does because some passage in a book of the New Testament says so is not really an example of thinking, is it? Because strictly speaking anyone who vests scripture with final, inerrant authority, does not have a choice. Thus you are not at liberty to disagree. But without liberty there is no reasonable intellectual appropriation, no judgment meriting that appellation; viz., no thinking that deserves to be respected.
Dear Kristof,
Thanks for your most eloquent comment – I just want to briefly touch on a few points you raise.
The popular argument that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality is faulty. Although He didn’t address it specifically, He did talk about sexual ethics. Specifically, He reaffirmed what God had decreed from the beginning, that sexual union was to be between one woman and one man, and that thereby they were to become one flesh. In Genesis Eve is taken from Adam, and by sexual union they once again become one.
Mat 19:4-6 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,’ (5) and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’ ? (6) So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
What you fail to understand is that Jesus did not come to relax the prescriptions set out in the Torah about sexual ethics – He came to tighten them; to tie up loose ends as it were. So we find, that whilst Moses allowed divorce (due to the hardness of men’s hearts) Jesus spoke strongly against it, except in cases of adultery. It was necessary for Him to speak on the issue of divorce – there was a loose end: people were getting divorced for invalid reasons. There was, however, no loose ends regarding homosexual acts – it was universally condemned by the Jews. It was therefore unnecessary for Him to address it specifically – just as it was unnecessary for Him to specifically address incest, bestiality etc. There was no need: people knew these things were prohibited and weren’t trying to get around it somehow.
Also the argument that if Jesus did not specifically address a particular sin, it must therefore not be a sin is invalid. I refer you back to examples like bestiality and incest.
You also misunderstand Jesus’ issue with the Pharisees. His problem with them had nothing to do with their ‘by the letter’ observance of the Torah. The problem was that they were hypocrites.
(I encourage you to read Matthew 23:1-36 to gain better insight into what was wrong with the Pharisees. See how many times Jesus uses the word hypocrites.)
Mat 23:3 Therefore whatever they (Pharisees and scribes) tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
So we find that in no way does Jesus condemn the Pharisees actual teachings (which were ‘strictly by the book’ if I can put it like that) – it was that they demanded of others what they themselves did not do. Their ‘holiness’ was mostly for show with no real heart or love for God – or His people.
Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, WITHOUT LEAVING THE OTHERS UNDONE. (capitals inserted)
Here we see that together with justice, mercy and faith (love your neighbour as yourself) the intention was never for us to abandon the Law (in favour of grace alone – which is what you imply). One must be careful to distinguish between the ritualistic aspects of the Law (which were dispensed with) and the Law itself, of which Jesus says,
Mat 5:17-18 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. (18) For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Your understanding of Jesus’ message is incomplete. Although assuredly Jesus did bring much joyful tidings (the washing of our sins in His blood and victory over sin found through abiding in Him) – that is not all He brought. John the Baptist said:
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Jesus came to bless with the Holy Spirit, but the fire mentioned here speaks of His judgement. Jesus also says,
Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
Jesus knew very well that His teachings will bring division – like we see now with regards to homosexuality. Jesus is fully God and therefore mercy and righteousness are always together, grace and judgement. Sure Jesus had a lot of time for sinners – for they acknowledged their sin and repented. This is brilliant news: repent and you will be forgiven. And this is the only approach we can take to sexual or any other kind of sin. Show me one instance where Jesus actually excused or condoned sin. Sin brings death. Indeed, for those who reject Him and His teachings, and persevere in sin, a certain fearful expectation of judgement awaits.
As for your opinion regarding the validity of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God – there I can’t help you. Either you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, as it claims to be, or you don’t. Either you believe there is an all powerful God Who is perfectly capable of using men to pen His message to the world, or you don’t. Whoever assembled the books of the Bible is hardly really relevant. I know who wrote the actual books contained therein – and that I can trust them. (And if you are going to say that what is contained in the books have been changed by men to suit themselves, as some do – please give proof; as well as a reason why these fictitious men left in so many things damning themselves.) When it comes to my adherence to what is taught in the Word of God (as opposed to the random teachings of men running after the various lusts of the flesh that continuously surface), the following is one of my favourite passages:
2Ti 3:14-15 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, KNOWING FROM WHOM YOU HAVE LEARNED THEM, (15) and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The credentials of the people who wrote the Bible are above reproach. And respectfully, you are the last person I would listen to with regards to what God will and will not do. Giving us the Bible is perfectly consistent with how God has interacted with mankind since the beginning. All that is necessary is contained therein. How everything began, why we are in the sorry state we’re in, He’s remedy for it – and the end. I don’t blame you for thinking of the Bible as a mere book – before I was called I believed pretty much the same things. But as I have studied the Bible I’ve been blown away by it’s unbelievable complexity. There is not way men could have put it together – it transcends time. Also the fact that it reads me just as much as I read it is quite sobering. Study it for yourself and prove me wrong. The other reason why we don’t jump on every new bandwagon of ‘new revelation’ is because the Bible clearly teaches that a great many false teachers will arise towards the end. I would be a fool indeed if discarded what I was taught in the Bible to follow these teachings. The Bible is the standard by which we test everything. How else are we to know truth from error? Feelings? Self-serving speculation?
And just to be clear – although the Bible is the final revelation of God that does not mean there is now no longer any interaction between individual believers and Him. God orders my life and communicates with me in thousands of different ways on a personal, specific, moment by moment basis. He is by no means silent or inactive. But when it comes to issues of doctrine – the Bible is the ultimate authority. I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I believe that the Bible is His revelation to man. What higher authority can there be?
It is useless of you to appeal to vanity (critical thinking, creativity etc.) to try induce me to question my submission to the Word of God. These things are empty. I have received many accolades from the world in my ‘lost years’ and I know they mean nothing. I used to be quite puffed up about my awesomeness. And you know what I learned? I was a fool. You also seem to simply assume that to follow the Word of God means I am devoid of critical thinking or creativity. Why on earth would you assume that? What evidence do you have? I have very good reasons for approaching the Bible in the way I do. You also simply assume obedience to God is trumped by self determination. It is not. It is in fact this very thing that got us into trouble in the first place. (And was the cause of much sorrow in my life before I gave my life to Jesus.)
Just a couple more remarks – I really need to get going!
“There is reason to believe Christ would have rejected some of the things Paul taught. Besides, it’s not as if Paul developed some entirely consistent doctrine; it is, for example, possible to use some statements of Paul to criticize others.” Can you please elaborate. A statement does not constitute a valid argument.
And finally. Do not think I don’t understand you. I do. I was you not so very long ago. Carl Jung was my ‘spiritual father’. Evolutionary psychology was my hobby. I waxed lyrical in my writings. I even had a website dedicated to expounding my ‘wisdom’. But really, the Bible sums it up very well:
Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
I was in bondage for a long time – I have no interest in returning. And definitely not for the temporary pleasures of sex.
I do applaud your integrity in this statement of yours in another post though:
“For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with the conclusion that Paul was against homosexuality.”
If you want to truth at any cost – any cost – you shall have it. But do you want it? You don’t have to believe a word I said. But if you determine in your heart to know the truth and pray to God to lead you to it – He will. He loves you and desires only good things for you. But you have to choose.
Go well and may the Truth find you and set you free. There is nothing like it. Really.
Sarel
” I do not believe in doing mental gymnastics to try fit the Word of God into what we want said…” You mean you can’t be bothered to decide for yourself what the parables of the bible mean? That’s sad.
” I do not believe in doing mental gymnastics to try fit the Word of God into what we want said – there is quite enough of that going around already in the world.”
Interesting comment. I would counter that with the fact that you would rather do psychological gymnastics and emotional bondage to yourself because of a misinterpretation of 6 Biblical passages. Why not read those passages with more of a hystorical context and free yourself from this aweful bondage.
Dear James
I have watched the Matthew Vines documentary and simply do not agree with his interpretation of these 6 texts. Do you imagine that I would chose to live a life of celibacy without making certain? Really, really certain? I studied the Word, with my concordance and more importantly, the Holy Spirit, and came away convinced that living the gay lifestyle was sinful. But you know – deep down in my heart I already knew the answer before going to God’s Word. The Holy Spirit was gentle – but firm. God has written His Law in my heart – it is there undeniably and for all eternity.
Maybe part of it my conviction has to do with the miraculous way in which I was saved. How God through a dream, a little whisper and art had led me to Himself. How when He revealed Himself to me it was so powerful that not a shred of myself or my life seemed to be of any consequence. I was alone, sitting on my bed drawing a picture of Job sitting under a tree (long story) and it was like a bolt of lightning suddenly went through me. Everything I had previously believed instantly turned to dust and was blown away in a gale of Truth. I could no more deny that I stood in the presence of the living God than I could command my heart to stop beating. In that very moment as I knelt before His majesty I knew that my life would never be the same again – and I didn’t care. I was ready to lay down my life – and still am. And this not of myself but purely by His grace.
So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
(Act 9:6)
For weeks after the Lord carried me as I went through the terrible heartache of breaking up with my partner of 7 years – not for a moment was He not there with me. When I woke up at night, thinking it must surely be a dream and cried out, ‘Lord?’ – He was there. When I was crying so much that I thought that surely I must die from the pain – He could make me laugh. He promised to lead me into all Truth – and He has kept that promise ever since.
But now I am no longer a babe in Christ – being tossed this way and that by every wind. By this turn of a word or that. And having matured God has pulled away somewhat so I may be buffeted by life, tested, refined, made holy. Did not our Lord Jesus go through the same? (And much more?)
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
(Heb 2:10-11)
Should I not be willing to do the same?
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
(Joh 15:20)
Therefore I do not look with envious eyes at my straight brothers and sister. God has given me a great gift. For as I stand broken and bleeding before the Almighty God He raises my spirit and I know there is but one God, Holy, Eternal, Unchangeable, my Hope and my Strength, my Lord and Saviour. It is through my brokenness that streams of living water flow unimpeded. My absolute dependence on my Lord Jesus with every breath I take is my strength.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
(Rom 12:1)
He will do the same for you – if you are willing to pay the price. Are you?
I agree sarelpetrus!
Your statement is very true:
“Therefore I do not look with envious eyes at my straight brothers and sister…My absolute dependence on my Lord Jesus with every breath I take is my strength [as a celibate man]!”. By your words I see that you experience God’s Grace in a profound way as a single gay man bound to celibacy. Would that ALL heterosexuals refrain from the passing fleshly pleasures of holy matrimony in exchange for one drop of the Grace that you experience daily as a celibate gay man!
“For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also!” Matthew 6:21
That little voice that spoke to you…. that thunderbolt that went straight through you….. I had a very similar experience. You see, I grew up in fundamentalist Christianity. I had ingrained in my from a very early age that gays were the worst of the worst. I spent 4 years at a Christian college. Once I left and got out from under the constant barrage of “you are nothing”, “you are evil”, “you are sin”…. i finally got to take a long, hard look at myself. You know what… I liked what I saw. I was a good kid… trying my best to do the right thing.
I finally came to the conclusion that if the same God who wrote the Bible …. was the same God who gave me exclusively same sex attractions….. then also forbid me to develop a relationship based on those exclusive same sex attractions. If THAT is the God of the Bible, then that is a God I wanted nothing to do with. That is a vindictive and mean God. However, I choose not to look at it that way. I decided that I needed to give my same sex attractions a try. I needed to look at the Bible in a different way. I went out on my first date at the age of 26.
That little voice you speak of…. that thunderbolt…. it hit me the moment I first kissed a man. It was brief, but it was transformative. That voice told me this… “How could something so natural for you, be evil?” That last element for shame and guilt was gone. Never again did I questions the morality of my same sex attractions or actions.
Funny how God can speak to both of us in such different ways.
Agree to disagree. Moving along…
For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with the conclusion that Paul was against homosexuality. While I haven’t watched the Vines video, I have read Matt’s rebuttal and agree with him in large measure. And I don’t have a great deal of respect for those who are so desperate to be accepted by Paul and his version of the glad tidings [what a funny and questionable locution!] that they make self-serving translations and interpretations. Paul hated homosexuals. But we all have our failings. It isn’t as if Christ would have patted him on the head and said: “Attaboy, Paul–you’ve really grasped the spirit of my teachings!” Paul condemned the same adulterers and prostitutes that Christ suffered to come unto Him as into a refuge [from the religious/rabbinical society of his day].
Paul condemned sexuality in a very un-Jewish, manichaeistic manner. Almost Neo-platonic in its repudiation of “sarx” or flesh. Missing is any notion that the pleasures of the body are a basic endowment and blessing of the Creator. The guy had issues. But remember, Jesus and those who followed him, including the one-time persecutor of Christian Saul-to-Paul, were living in the expectation of the end of the world and the arrival of the Kingdom. Or, eschatologically. Thus Paul could exhort:
“…the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away.” 1Corinthians 7:29
King James version: “….the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; and they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; and they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.”
The “as if” mode qualifies all earthly existence for those living towards the kingdom. I’m not sure how well understood that fairly radical shift of perspective is these days, two thousand years after the Kingdom was fist announced and counting. But without appreciating the expectation of the passing away of the world as we know it one risks misunderstanding the existential-spiritual mood of primitive Christianity–the movement whose literature constitute what we call the New Testament. The rational for the whole purity ethos is the preparation for the Last Judgment, the death of the world as we know it. In a life dedicated to repentance there isn’t going to be a lot of time for the enjoyment of one’s body. So an ascetic ethos comes with the end-of-days territory.
The Gospel is misunderstood if interpreted as giving guidelines for living a well-adjusted, prosperous existence here and now. It’s point is not to reform society for society’s sake. At least not its primary, rather its collateral/accidental ‘point’ and effect. Yet the Kingdom did not and has not come; the world continues to revolve and devolve; society progresses in some senses, regresses in others. We go on living and dying. What is a Christian to do–attempt to create heaven on earth? or execute, here and now, like the Crusaders and Puritans, God’s judgment? There are temptations in both directions.
We must somehow live in the world as if we were not ‘of’ it. That seems, even in Paul’s day, to be at once an anticipation of and end, and the attempt to sort out one’s affairs such as they are from one day to another. To live “as if” and “as though” is to live as one liberated yet awaiting liberation. Everything else follows from that basic paradox.
One thing is clear, the enumeration of individual sins is a useless endeavor in light of the circumstance that before God we all stand condemned: we are ‘in’ sin by dint of being recipients of His grace and revelation, as Luther taught. [Assuming one accepts the biblical interpretation of human existence as fallen, which, I suspect, is incumbent upon Christians, "new creation" or not.] Preoccupation with the multitude of transgressions, with what is meritorious, what reprehensible in our all-too-human understanding, is decidedly terrestrial, mundane, and godless insofar as it is uninformed by compassion. When it is so informed, then and only then do we live, even now, “in” the kingdom Jesus Christ envisioned for us and for himself.
Dear James,
I am very sorry to hear that you had to suffer so much condemnation growing up. I got bullied a bit at school by other boys but academically I was so far above them that I simply discounted them as idiots and mostly ignored them. Although my family certainly wouldn’t have approved of my being gay they would have accepted me and simply kept on praying for me – which is what they did when I eventually told them. In fact, when I told my dad I was gay he cried because I had felt I couldn’t tell him as a kid.
At university I was the first person to come out as openly gay at medical school – this in Afrikaans South Africa. Very conservative in a military kind of way. I was terrified of the response I was going to receive – had visions of the professors flunking me at the slightest provocation. That never happened. In fact – I became somewhat of an celebrity. Me and some friends of mine started a ‘counter culture’ newspaper – I was in charge of the ‘pink pages’. It was a huge hit. Fame didn’t really sit well with me because I’m quite an introvert but my quirkyness has been my salvation most my life. If the crowds got too much I just said something off the wall and made my escape while they tried to disgest. I also never left home without my best buddy, a huge German dude with an unlikely afro – I simply hid behind him most of the time. They simply don’t make them like they used to.(As I’m such an introvert, when I say crowds, please read about 3 people.)
In terms of sex I was perhaps a bit unusual for most gay men that age. I’m pretty goodlooking (if I say so myself) and had plenty of opportunities what with living in Cape Town, gay capital of South Africa – and yet my clothes resolutely clung to my body. I kissed my first man at 19 – it was exciting but mostly I remember that his breath tasted ‘tinny’ due to the brand of cigarette he smoked. (I was a smoker at the time as well. He smoked Benson & Hedges – a brand I thoroughly disapproved of.) I went to gay clubs alone mostly, danced a bit, had a few beers (wasn’t much of a drinker and didn’t use drugs – those days) and generally fled into the lesbians toilet when someone was trying to corner me (much to both parties disgust I’m sure). I didn’t dare go to the male toilets – there were holes between the cubicles and I honestly didn’t have time to slap away groping hands when all I wanted to do was have a pee.
My great love came my way when I was 21. He was 19 and well – drop dead gorgeous. I met him in the parking lot of the block of flats I was living in. Nothing sleazy – he was helping someone move. I was head over heels – and so was he. We dated till I finished university and had to work in a different city. Long distance did it’s work and he broke up with me after a few months. I was heart broken. For years.
I write all this to you so you can have a little idea of who I am – although I’m now 37 and much, much has happened in the meantime. As I always tell people – at least they can’t say I’m boring. So in short, I was pretty sexy, had a brilliant career in medicine ahead of me (although working with all the AIDS in South Africa nearly killed me emotionally due to all the death), had fantastic friends – what more could I want? I had tasted the lips of a young princeling, stars collided, galaxies imploded – the earth moved with an embarrassed look on its face. I know that kind of bolt. It’s called infatuation and lust.
That’s not the bolt I’m talking about. The bolt I’m talking about is this one:
Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!” And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts.”
(Isa 6:2-5)
So here I stand. A man changed in a moment of awe and trembling. My aim is not to cause you misery. Really. I wish I was wrong and could tell you differently, that you could go ahead and live your life as you choose. But I can’t. Unfortunately the Bible does not allow for me to make judgements on how I feel. It’s a matter of Truth. I preach this Truth not only to us gay folk, but also to them straight people who think they have it all figured out but are simply blinded by different deceptions. And yes, I am starting to become unpopular. But that is what I expect because that is what Jesus said would happen. Should I compromise because of that? No. I can’t. I lived a lie for too long to now go back to it.
I would rather know the Truth and suffer than believe a lie and be happy. And that is the strangest thing. My conversion really started precisely 40 days before I said ‘I do’ to Jesus with a prophetic dream. At that time I didn’t realize that it was a prophetic dream or what it meant – all I knew was that the moment I woke up I simply had to write it down immediately, something I had never done before. In fact, I had kind of stopped dreaming for some years before then. (I do know what the dream meant now.) In the weeks that followed I started drawing a picture (never drew before) which I ‘knew’ was to be called ‘The Key’. It is rather interesting to be sure. Maybe I’ll put it up online sometime – who knows maybe someone will still unravel more of it’s secrets than I have already. After that I felt compelled to do a drawing of an angel bound in a dungeon with flames shooting out of his head. But the chains were coming loose and the angel was smiling. Next I drew Job sitting under a tree – and it was during this picture that Jesus called me.
During this time I didn’t have a clue what was going on with me or where I was heading. I for sure didn’t in my wildest imagination imagine that at the end of the process I’d be a Christian. I mean, I didn’t even believe in God! The whole period was a bit dreamy and peaceful – very strange. But during that whole period I went for long (2-3 hour) walks every day – and kept having the strangest conversations in my head. I would get questions like this:
If you could choose to know the truth and suffer, or believe a lie and be happy, which would it be?
If you could win the Euromillions but as price a nameless child in Africa will die, which would you choose?
These two questions I remember clearly. There were more but I haven’t really thought about that time in a while. But what I’m telling you is for real – I am not making it up. As you might have guessed I chose correctly. You see – I believe we all get to make a choice at some point in our lives. Every last person on this planet. Most people simply just don’t notice when they are making it. But we all get to choose.
So when I speak to other people I really couldn’t care less about myself. Pride has been wrung out of me through a long process involving many, many tears. It creeps back but I have two lacrimal glands always willing to put forward more tears in order to deal with my errancy. I have learned (and am still learning) the true meaning of selfless love, patience, forgiveness. Slowly I am working my way through:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
(Gal 5:22-23)
You know – I am quite scared sometimes to ask God to teach me things because the Holy Spirit doesn’t mess around. What He teaches is engraved into my heart – forever. And most of the time the process of learning is so unexpected that I am left thoroughly freaked out by it. Run away screaming, arms akimbo kind of thing. Like a penguin – only faster. But then afterwards I look back – and cry. Really. (I do rather cry a lot these days – probably because I never cried before. There are few things as sweet as tears of joy and gratitude to the Lord.) I cry because I simply can not believe how yet another blemish had been wiped from my soul – in some way that is beyond my understanding. And that the Creator of the universe is bothering with the likes of me! Me! And so I ask for more. I ask to be broken, and broken, and broken and I cry tears of anguish and I sing with joy and I praise God as I take each little step closer to what He wants me to be. As I start becoming someone I never thought I could possibly become. And if I have to swim there in a river of tears – then so be it. I do not say this lightly because God has honoured all such requests that I have made – and tears there have been aplenty. (And me scolding myself for being such and idiot to once again get myself into this situation, knowing full well that when it’s over I’ll just do it again. I suppose it must be like having a baby. It’s agony but the joy after is so overwhelming that you just forget the pain – and do it again.)
Do you understand what I’m saying? I want to SHAKE people and tell them to stop fooling around with God and TRULY repent! Because when you do He will do such a work in your life that will leave the world trembling as they behold the Glory of the Almighty God in action. And it will hate you for it. For the darkness of this world does not comprehend the light. But to some you will be a sweet perfume and to them you will breathe life and freedom. What do I care about the things of this world? How can anything compare to THIS? It is all dust to me.
I’m nothing special. I have but little strength. No jokes. But my Lord Jesus Christ! He is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings and to Him every knee will bow! And right this minute He is saying:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
(Rev 3:20-21)
Open that door. I double dare you.
With love,
Sarel
Sarel, when you talk about your teen years and early twenties, it’s all clear. But then I almost lost you. I don’t quite understand what your life has been like since then. You might say it’s because only who has ears will hear, I know. I do have ears. But it’s like you deliberately try to sound “supernatural” (the word you use in your other post below) and obscure, and I’m not sure it’s really a good thing…
And I also didn’t understand, did your dad cry because he realized he should have been much closer to your and more open with you when you were a child, or because he realized it’s too late to “change” you when you grew up and eventually told him you were gay?
Sarel,
First off, nice to hear that you are from South Africa. One of my good friends that I work with is from South Africa, but she left decades ago.
I want to be clear about this fact: The only bullying I received was from the pulpit. I was a smart athletic kid that also played the piano. I think because i was athletic and played sports that no one could see the thing about myself that I was trying to run from. Hearing the evil bullying from the pulpit was aweful. They were condemning me … and people just like me…. any they had no clue what they were talking about. Still don’t! The pastors that pull their noses out of the Bible for a short time and try to get to know some gay people often find themselves trying to sort out how and why the Bible would seemingly comdemn gay people.
That thunderbolt that I felt was not lust. Let’s be clear about that. I have felt lust. I know what it is.
What disturbs me is your strong feeling that the Holy Spriit led you to your change of heart. You are a very smart man. I’m not trying to question the existance of the Holy Spirit. It scares me when people put a strong influence on the Holy Spirit. Is it the Holy Spirit or some other psychological manifiestation messing with your mind. The “spirit” of god has made people do some truly aweful things…. drown their children… kill people…. fly planes into buildings. You are obviously quite smart. Use that intellect that God gave you to logically sift through the Word of God…. just like Matthew Vines has done. I have to be honest…. not trying to be cruel… but I think you and Matt have taken the easy route here…. relying on a voice in your head and a few Bible verses to make up your mind. Look for your own truth.
“I would rather know the Truth and suffer than believe a lie and be happy.” – Here is where we are at a crossroads. I stand before you a changed man because I sought the truth and found it. I believe that you are the one believing a lie. A long lived lie that has been used to condemn, torture and kill people just like us for a very long time.
I too find myself a changed man. Sarel – if you pray for understanding, you will see that knowing the Truth will allow you to be happy. This “lie” IS the cause for your suffering. God loves you for who you are. Once you accept that, all of this will fall into place.
James – thank you for your words. You are awesome!
Dear James,
I am sorry we can not come to an agreement on this. Looking at what other ‘Christians’ have done in the past however is irrelevant to the discussion. Everyone knows that many a horror has been perpetrated by the ‘church’ in the name of Jesus – every last one of them contrary to the teachings of Jesus. This includes the judgemental pulpit and its lack of love for the sinner. There are a great many ‘pastors’ (and Christians) who have never truly been reborn and it’s easy to spot them: you will know them by their fruit – or lack of them.
I’ll also be the first to admit that the ‘church’ has in many cases left discernment at the door in search of emotional highs and thrills. One only has to look at stuff like the Lakeland ‘revival’ and Rick Joyner’s ‘MorningStar’ to see the full degree of deception. The Kundalini ‘fire serpent’ is ripping through the Charismatic movement like a demonic plague – which it is. I try caution people running after signs and wonders but in general it’s been of little use. They want their ears tickled and care little for the Truth.
Intelligence really has nothing to do with understanding the Word of God. I have friends that are far more intelligent than me and they are blind to the truths of the Bible. If the Holy Spirit does not open the Word of God for you it remains only so many words without depth and meaning.
And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE; FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE GROWN DULL. THEIR EARS ARE HARD OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.’
(Mat 13:14-15)
It is rather worrying that you seem to have little understanding of the importance of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
(Rom 8:12-14)
I disagree about taking the easy road. It is a ludicrous statement. Apart from the amount of commitment required to live a godly life, I have had two physical demonic attacks since coming to Jesus – both of which were immediately terminated by simply saying, ‘In the name of Jesus!’. In fact – both times it was over before I even got to the ‘Jesus’ part. I serve a supernatural God and live in a supernatural world. My fight is not with you but with the powers of darkness that are making war on humanity. And make no mistake, they will sweet talk, seduce, batter, threaten or do whatever it takes to bring you to a fall. But by the light of the Word and the power of the Holy Spirit I see through their lies and resist.
Matthew Vines has added nothing new to the discussion – he has done nothing more than rehash arguments put forward by John Boswell in the early 1980s. John Boswell approached the Bible trying to justify his own homosexuality – and failed. All his arguments have been refuted. He was trying to find ‘his own truth’.
Truth is not some flexible thing we can adjust to serve us. It is immutable. And the Bible is not just a dead thing. When we talk about the Living Word that’s what we mean. It’s alive. And you don’t just read it – it also reads you. And changes you.
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
(Heb 4:12-13)
I don’t know whether we’ll talk again but I’ll leave you with this. If you grasp this, then you will have understanding.
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
(Mat 13:44-46)
You have refuted no arguments. You have simply offered alternative interpretations of the same verses. Onlookers have two separate interpretations to choose from, with arguments for and against each.
Would you wager your mother’s life that your interpretation is correct?
I ask this not because I have anything against your mother, or because I feel that such a wager is appropriate, but simply to gauge your certainty. If you’re going to destroy someone’s happiness because you believe that God has commanded it, then nothing short of an I-would-bet-my-mother’s-life level of certainty in that belief would suffice to justify your actions and your teachings.
@ John Wellman
I’ve thought about your proposition and my answer is, no. I am not going to wager on my mother’s life. Not because I lack certainty but because it would just be biblically wrong to do so. It would also require of me to be superstitious in order for it to be of any effect – and I’m not. But concerning my certainty, as a Christian, my yes is my yes: I am certain.
Regarding your alternative interpretations theory – well, that is a whole other story, involving relativism (popular today) versus absolute truth (not so popular). I do believe that if one is to look at what the Bible says objectively about homosexual sex (as far as it is possible to do so) there can be no doubt: it is a sin. I didn’t come to this conclusion overnight – I looked at all the relevant passages (in context), prayed about it a lot (because it’s not like I enjoy giving people bad news – believe it or not), and read and watched a lot of material (and there is a lot out there) surrounding this issue and the answer always comes back the same: it stays a sin. Do I still feel bad having to tell other gay people that it’s a sin for them to have sex? Yes. I feel terrible – the younger the person, the worse I feel. But I’m not going to start lying about what is clear – to myself or others.
But concerning this matter I fear the emotional appeals and subtle twisting of Scripture are cutting through sound biblical exegesis and godly conscience like a hot knife through butter. At the end of the day people are going to believe what is convenient for them – this has become amply clear to me. But each person has to work out his or her own salvation. God is merciful. He will open eyes and some will listen. Some won’t.
But also know this: in turning away from homosexuality I have gained something far more real and precious – and I haven’t regretted my choice even once. The more I get to know Jesus Christ and His love for me, well, nothing can compare. Not even come close. In fact, before I got to know God, I really had no idea what love really was.
1Co 13:4-8 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; (5) does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; (6) does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; (7) bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (8) Love never fails.
God’s love never fails. Ever.
James,
Well said. Finding acceptance and love within, and removing guilt and shame before it becomes crippling, is what I refer to as God’s grace. Living a life free from self-hate, and full of God’s love is a life I would change with no other.
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People are born with all sorts of traits. The person we become is the result of a combination of nature and nurture. The issue is not how we are born…for clearly, the Bible says we are born with sinful natures…but it is about what God has predetermined from creation and reiterated in Scripture as His design and His will. Accepting the authority of our Creator and His guidance about how to live from the Bible, we will find many things about ourselves that must be submitted and crucified because they are contrary to what we come to understand as we study and know Christ personally. The Bible says we must not lust even in our minds…I think this speaks to the issue of self-pleasuring, as it is lust driven and selfish sexuality. Are we really bringing every thought into obedience to Christ. We are so consumed in this country by sex. Surely what the world promotes is not from God. God designed that the act of intercourse should be experienced between a man and a woman…that they two could become one flesh, and that that oneness was only possible between a man and woman. I don’t think very many, if any, make it through this life without some form of perversion touching their lives. The only way to have victory over any sin of sexual perversion is by submitting all to God and resisting the devil- which includes turning off the television, changing the music, throwing out the book or magazine, getting away from the image on the computer…if there is something that causes one to lust or think in a way that is not pleasing to God. The battle is fought and won in the mind. We must all check ourselves.
Great, Matt!
Matthew Vines, and homosexuality in general, are “dead set against” diversity of the sexes when it comes to ‘love’ (i.e. gender-exclusive) simply because the complementary sex is different. In contrast, heterosexuality is “dead set” FOR diversity of the sexes when it comes to love (i.e. gender-inclusive)!
Diversity orientation = man + woman!
Mr. Vines also conveniently left out Matthew 19 and Mark 10 where Jesus required diversity of the sexes in marriage.
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http://www.advocate.com/op-ed/2012/05/01/opinion-do-not-give-christian-gays
I believe Matthew Vines avoided citing Matt. 19:4-5 (and Mark 10,etc.) where Jesus requires diversity of the sexes in marriage. He created the diversirty of male and female “for this reason”: so that they could be unified as one (i.e. equality!) Let no man separate!
Homosexuality separates/segregates men and women. The basic function/orientation of homosexuality is sexsegregation in the name of ‘love’.
Two men is not diversity OR equality!
Diversity orientation = man + woman.
Since we can lovingly discourage genetic obesity,we can lovingly help gay folks to become free of their gender bigotry or gender phobia.
Oh Bruce, you are throwing around politically charged words to make a very strange point. “Diversity orientation”…. huh? “sex segregation”…. huh? “genetic obesity”…. HUH?!? “Gender bigotry”….. “gender phobia”….. HUH?!? I don’t have the time or the energy to go through the mental gymnastics required to make any sense of your post.
James, maybe your mind is all twisted up by gay activist’s rhetoric.
Let’s do some common-sense thinking…
Heterosexuality
1. Male and female is diversity of the sexes.
2. Heterosexuality is a sexual orientation.
3. Heterosexuality causes the diverse sexes to be oriented to one another, thus diversity orientation when it come to love.
Homosexuality
1. Two men is not diversity.
2. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation.
3. Homosexuality causes the same sex to be oriented to one another, thus anti-diversity orientation in the name of ‘love’.
4. An aversion to the opposite sex is gender phobia.
Gender bigotry
Big·ot: One who is strongly partial to one’s own group [i.e. sex] and is intolerant of those who differ. – The American Heritage® Dictionary
Homosexuality causes one to be strongly partial to one’s own sex and intolerant of those who differ when it comes to ‘love’.
But, if we can discourage obesity when obesity is genetic, then we can lovingly belp gay folks to become free crom their gender bigotry or gender phobia.
Bruce, you seem to imply that homosexuals are incapable of love (which is the false propaganda of homophobes who like to think that gays are only capable of lust), and your definition of “bigot” sounds pretty much like the definition of a homophobic heterosexual: “One who is strongly partial to one’s own group and is intolerant of those who differ”.
Matthew,I believe you avoided citing Matt. 19:4-5 (and Mark 10,etc.) where Jesus requires diversity of the sexes in marriage. He created the diversirty of male and female “for this reason”: so that they could be unified as one (i.e. equality!) Let no man separate!
Homosexuality separates/segregates men and women. The basic function/orientation of homosexuality is sexsegregation in the name of ‘love’.
Two men is not diversity OR equality!
Diversity orientation = man + woman.
Since we can lovingly discourage genetic obesity,we can lovingly help gay folks to become free of their gender bigotry or gender phobia.
Matt, can you point me to the paragraphs in this post that explains WHY you are right and Matthew Vines is wrong? For the life of me, I can’t find them. I found lots of paraphrasing of his arguments, and lots statements to the effect THAT you’re right and he’s wrong, but no statements as to WHY.
You are right.
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I am new to this website, and I’m fascinated by Matt Moore’s testimony. Before I married my wife (‘m hetero) I lived with a roommate who is attracted to men, and he calls himself Christian. I learned a lot. I understand the frustrations of wanting and needing love and acceptance. I understand companionship as well. And, I understand the fight over Biblical exegesis, since I work at a Christian Ministry.
Having said all that, I do reflect often about what Jonathan Edwards called “pleasure.” My understanding of his definition of sin is that we will seek our pleasures at any cost. Any cost, including rationality, reason, and sanity.
My old roommate, 30 years later, still is attracted to men. He fights within himself every day, and attempts to remain celibate every day. For him, the question boils down to this: if there were no Bible at all, only an awareness of God, and God said “No! Don’t do it” will that do?
The warfare has not changed in millenia. J edwards was basically describing the pursuit of pleasure as “I want what I want, I want it now, and I will always want it, and I will come up with any and every argument I can think of to support my wants, my pleasures.”
To this great battle over passion, desire, and pleasure, rests the Biblical truths by which we choose to submit to, or not.
Apparently Matthew Vines and others, no matter how strong and valid the desire for companionship might be, have set themselves to simply say, “I want what I want. that’s final.”
Apparently, Matt Moore, and my old roommate, no matter how strong and valid the desire for companionship might be, have set themselves to simply say, “Not my will, but Yours be done.”
I fully admit God’s ways are not our ways. But some of us, apparently few of us, are more drawn to that, than insisting on our own pleasures. Its called being born again.
But thankfully, desire and passion, companionship and love, they all take on a new meaning, a new understanding that needs to be built over time and healing. Some will attain the best of that rebuilding, and I hope Matt Moore gets there. I hope Matthew Vines repents, and takes on Christ in truth as a more worthy goal than his own pleasures.
Its worth it – especially for an eternity.
BTW – its a red herring to argue we don’t understand what Scripture really says or teaches. That’s sheer folly. We know – even the Pope knows. We just want what we want, we want it now,
and that’s final.
Its a recipe for ultimate disaster. Just warning you now.
@ Cory Fleig
Amen.
Well said.
Cory Fleig spouts off about things he does not know or understand and gay men agree with him. Sad. Matthew Vines is not seeking pleasure. I’ve read a few interviews from him recently. As far as I know, this young man is still a virgin and trying to fit his own sexual orientation into the constructs of what Scripture says. To try to paint him any other way is a lie and character assassination.
I applaud any young man who can search out his heart, explore the scriptures with an open mind and question the Dogma that was fed to him since a child. I wish he had more open-minded, questioning people on this blog.
From all your words I can only assume that you jump to conclusions and you know little of what you are talking about.
1) “The rest of us” haven’t “remained unaware of the true contextual meaning”. There are quite a few people who actually do read the bible, study it in its various translations, and even make an effort to understand the languages in which it was originally written. Those of us whose knowledge and understanding of the bible surpasses simply quoting a few dozen convenient selections to make ourselves feel better have been aware of the points he makes throughout this presentation for a significantly long time. Everything he said with regards to interpretation and context makes perfect sense to any rational, objective, clear-headed, properly educated human. These are not new ideas. People have been discussing some of these points for centuries. We just tend to not be as loud as the people who are too arrogantly certain to actually, you know, study the text that’s supposedly the unerring governing authority on how one lives and acts. Probably because we’ve seen what that arrogant certainty and the people who carry it so proudly can and will do.
2) ‘In fact, you claim that if a person who thinks they are gay gets married and has a family with someone of the opposite sex, then they are in sin and deep idolatry since they are doing what is contrary to their “true nature”.’ No, that is not what he claimed, but coming from someone who clearly likes to pick and choose from the subject matter, I’m not surprised you came to this conclusion. You are wrong for several reasons. First, a person who “thinks” they are gay is not the same as a person who *is* gay. Not everyone has had a barrage of unfortunate life events which may have made such things confusing for a young child. For a child growing up in a healthy environment, it’s not even a matter of “Am I gay?” so much as “I’m different”. Children and young people only struggle with this because of the hostile outside forces that deem it bad and something to be hidden or changed, which is utterly dehumanizing.
My point is this: If anyone who is unsure of any significant part of who they are – whether it’s sexuality, their self-worth, their religion or faith, their ability to interact with other humans in a healthy and compassionate way – quite frankly, has no business getting married and creating more humans. Matthew Vines said it would be against the nature of someone who is only attracted to the same sex to force a relationship with someone of the opposite sex – someone whom he’s not attracted to or in love with. You got it right at first, with the last sentence of your first paragraph, but then totally borked it by pulling something completely different out of your ass, saying he claimed that someone who “thinks he’s gay” would be in sin if he married a woman. This is drastically different than someone who *knows* he’s gay committing to a lifelong, romantic relationship with someone that he isn’t romantically interested in, though arguably equally as unfortunate.
The former, in my opinion, is not only sad, but also cruel. It’s sad, because that’s a terrible way to live one’s life – depriving one’s self of the very thing humans need to survive and thrive – connection. Hiding, ignoring, condemning – anything but accepting – a very real and unchangeable part of who you are is a serious hurdle to genuine happiness. It’s emotionally unsustainable, and it almost always leads to extremely destructive outcomes. And It’s cruel to all the other people impacted by that commitment – a wife, children, extended family – because the committer’s heart would never truly be in line with the life he’s leading. The kind of unhappiness that grows in self-loathing and self-deception spreads like cancer. I know; I’ve lived in it, with a father spending the vast majority of his life hiding from himself, hating himself, and projecting that hate onto others, disguised as some kind of warped, righteous “tough love” that people like you administer so liberally. I’ve also seen it destroy lives countless times. In the bible belt.
3) ‘You believe, according to this Scripture, that God has made some of us gay and some of us straight, and that we should live according to how he oriented us.’
How does that seem any less likely than an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God making broken people – innocent children born into a broken, sinful state – and then telling people to kill them if they every try to do what makes them happy? I think the deeply darkened heart is closer to you than you think. Project much? Oh wait…
4) ‘You are taking your own ideas and projecting them into the Scripture rather than taking the Scripture and allowing it to shape what you believe.’ Like I said before, the points that Vines so eloquently and precisely explains are not new ideas. They have been researched, discussed, criticize and revised by many people far more qualified to interpret Greek, Hebrew and Latin than I suspect you are, and people who probably took more than the 101s for Psych, History and Anthro at some community college in Alabama. So yeah. Who’s projecting again?
5) Your != you’re
6) ‘Again, Arsenokoitai: Two men, one bed… pretty clear.’ See #4.
7) People disagree with attributing the definition of “homosexual” to a word that directly translates into “soft” because it translates into “soft,” not “homosexual”. Now, you clearly have quite a few problems, but with regards to this, your problem is entirely based on your uneducated opinion of what the previous words meant (again, see #4). And that bit about how we still see homosexuals who act like women simply amplifies your ignorance. I’ll give you the cliff’s notes version of the subject of gender vs. sexuality, lest you get too distracted with drugs and booze to make it all the way through the class: Gender Identity has absolutely nothing to do with Sexuality, though they do share some common traits. Both are irrelevant to the character of an individual; both can be either fluid or rigid or somewhere in between; and both are subject of insane amounts of hostility, bigotry, ignorance, hate, and self-righteous judgment.
8) ‘Your extreme perversions of the Scripture are going to be the death of you.’ Actually, it’s *your* extreme perversion of the gospel that has been and like will continue to be the death of countless people who are gay, might be gay, or just maybe look a little gay. It is people like you, who are too afraid to address the real issues in your own life, and so pick and choose your fuel to attack perceived issues in others’ lives, who wreak havoc on people just trying to be happy and decent human beings. It’s the mentality you maintain that drives people to tie young men to fenceposts and beat them to death, or organize entire foundations devoted to criminalizing, marginalizing and dehumanizing people who pose absolutely no threat to you.
9) I’m really surprised I managed to get through this whole article. Embarrassing grammar aside, you really make zero logical sense.
10) I think you should check your heart, Sunshine. Perhaps all that coke and ketamine has it a little offbeat these days.
Fortunately, I broke free from the cult of “traditional” US Christianity a long time ago, and so am free to live my life being a decent and happy person with a clear conscience and a solid sense of self worth, without having to judge or condemn everyone who’s doing the things I wish I had the balls to do myself. I have no expectations of ever being able to get you to understand exactly how ludicrous and out of touch with reality you are, but hopefully this can serve as some flicker of hope of other possibilities for your future readers, after you’ve pushed them that much deeper into the self-loathing and self-perpetuating misery that too often either turn people into the likes of you, or corpses.
What can i say but excellent. your response is 10 out of ten,
Ken
WIN.
I’m afraid Matthew that this fellow is mostly right in what he’s rebuking you about – though a little strong. You make up things; and you’re afraid that the Bible doesn’t read how you understand it to read, and you will cowardly accept what tradition teaches. Furthermore, if you advocate celibacy so much, why don’t you start a class for gay people teaching how to be celibate.
Meanwhile, other than being doctors, waitresses, lawyers, or even male and female, know this: WE ARE ALL HUMAN. Humans do not have a social class or a caste system, making us all EVEN, so who are we to ‘teach’ or even ‘observe’ when we were all created equal? If you want to look at it this way, we are all sinful, dirty human beings regardless of religious standings, or forgiveness. No one is better than one another. The sex war needs to come to an end with not a loss or a win, but a disregards to the whole thing. Leave each other alone and live in true peace. Your life is your life, and theirs is theirs. Christians, say you were the one in the supposed “wrong”. Let’s just pretend. It would be very unsettling if homosexuals came into YOUR life, and constantly breathed down your throat lifestyle choices, so just let it be. Oh, and another. I believe in Jesus. I don’t recall or can even picture him chasing homosexuals down and beating them, in fact, I see him hugging and embracing them. Remember Mary Magdelene. Cast the first rock, go ahead. Peace, children.
Dear Andrea,
Let’s just be clear – you’re not telling us to stop ‘breathing down gay people’s necks’ because why? That’s not what we are doing. Not even in the slightest. Are we tying anyone to chairs and making them read this blog? Picketing outside their houses? Setting our gaydar to stun and patrolling the streets and preaching at the gays as they lie immobilized on the pavement? Matt is writing this blog to help other Christians in the main. If non-believers or Christians who don’t agree with us come along what do you want us to do? Roll over and play dead? Are they the only one’s allowed an opinion here? Has freedom of speech suddenly become one-sided? And you get to pick the side? I mean, what right do you have?
No, what you are telling us is to be quiet. Disagreeing with someone is not the same as hate or persecution. We aren’t forcing our views on anyone. I mean, honest, how would you even go about it? Last time I checked people believed whatever they wanted to. As for Jesus, as far as I know He didn’t just arrive, give everyone a pat on the back and then quietly go to the cross. What was Jesus’ final instructions to us?
Mat 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Believing in Jesus and following Him are not the same thing. Even the demons believe in Him – and tremble!
PS: Where you get the ‘chasing down homosexuals and beating them’ is quite beyond me.
When someone’s interpretation of their chosen holy texts leads them to vote, behave, and teach others to behave in ways that threaten the basic human rights of others, then yes, they are forcing their views onto the people they deem less worthy. Talk all you want, but please understand the implications of your words. People have killed other people in this country, and in this decade, simply because they were gay. People have been pushed to suicide because of the hateful actions of others, often thinly disguised as “tough love” or “being a real Christian”.
So understand that when you say your faith tells you that you must inform people of their sins, you’re doing far more than just voicing your opinion. While you may not be picketing or beating people, the sentiment you express is precisely the same as those who are.
You have every right to your opinions and words. What most of us who disagree with those opinions are trying to do is not shut you up, but ask you to think about why you feel it’s necessary to target people who simply want to live their lives, not hurting anyone.
Dear miss,
All you say is completely sensible and true – if it wasn’t for the fact that God really does exist. Now I know I can not convince you of this – only God can grant repentance leading to knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 2:25-26 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, (26) and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
And I completely understand where you’re coming from because for 20 years that was precisely where I was – and then I was called and everything changed. I was granted repentance and suddenly knew the truth. Precisely what that is like I can not rightly explain to someone who hasn’t gone through it. I can not explain to a blind person what the colour blue is. And for that very reason I do not ‘hound’ people. I wait for them to come to me. People who come to this website come here completely out of free will. Many are led here by the Holy Spirit. So I will speak the truth to them. Why? Because it has brought me joy and peace that surpasses anything a ‘worldly’ person can now. It has brought me hope and life. And my prayer is for all to share in this wonderful communion with God through Jesus Christ.
And I certainly don’t look down my nose on unrepentant sinners – I am far too aware of the fact that not by my works (which before being saved abounded in all sorts of evil, believe you me) but by grace alone was I saved. I wasn’t saved because I was such a goodie goodie. Far from it.
The world has become more and more secular over the years – and continues to do so by the day. Has things improved? Are people happier? Has suicides diminished? Has every form of evil not, in fact, flourished more and more? Do not be deceived: real Christians have served as a brake. But as large parts of ‘Christianity’ fall further and further into apostasy and the world grows in it’s rebellion against God things are going to spiral out of control faster and faster. And you will see it with your own eyes.
So while I have breath I will proclaim the Truth, which is in Jesus Christ. .
Please consider my words – what I say is a blessing, not a curse.
Sarel
Dear miss,
Just some food for thought.
Dear Mr. Moore:
Growing up, a friend of mine said something off the cuff that I try to remember: when you point a finger at someone, look at your hand and count the number of fingers pointing back at you (usually three, when done correctly). You’ve accused Mr. Vines (many times over) of adding his own interpretation to the scriptures that you quote…and then interpret to suit your argument. Let’s take a quick breakdown of your interpretations and lay them bare.
A. Romans passage: So, right off in reading this, you can’t help but note a couple of things. First, it’s a pretty vengeful passage of text. Second, it’s lacking a major component that Old Testament writers had (or at least employed)–”God said”. Unpacking the first issue, think back to a time when someone has hurt you deeply. How easy has it been to assume, even say out loud, that God will “get them” for that? Notice how God’s vengeance only seems appropriate when you’re the injured party. But what about those times when you are causing the hurt…when you’re the one who sins? You might assume that God will “get you” as well, but your innermost desire and prayer is to be let off the hook with a mere slap on the wrist. We are all guilty of this dichotomy and Paul here isn’t any less guilty. You have to question whether he would feel and write the same thing if he were being accused of the same things (we’ll never mind the text translation issue). Would he feel the same? It’s hard to say because, well, it was an awfully long time ago and in a different culture and in a completely different part of the world and…wait, sorry…logical tangent. The important thing to pay attention to here is that Paul is clearly angry and speaking from that frame of mind. I challenge you to find many times when you’ve spoken (or written) things in anger and not wanted to retract them later.
But even more nitty-nitty gritty is Paul’s complete lack of a “and God said”–nada, zilch, zero, none. It is Paul who pronounces God’s vengeance (convenient, no?). This is extremely problematic for an argument that professes to detail God’s own thinking/feeling about the subject of homosexuality. God never speaks directly in this passage. “Ah, but Paul is God’s mouthpiece” one might say. Fine. You can do your own math on the number of God’s mouthpieces who have proven time and again that humans are fallible and often misuse religion to justify their own selfish ends.
So, using Paul here to tell someone else that “I’m right and you’re wrong” is a pretty slippery slope because it can easily be turned and used against you. And, since you’ve already admitted to being not without sin, does it really make sense for you to be casting stones at anyone else? Beam and speck much?
B. Corinthians and Timothy passages: This will be short. Any authority you thought you had in arguing someone else’s errant “interpretation” falls apart when you “interpret” Paul’s meaning from his own coinage. Mind you, Paul coins a term and nobody vets it (like what happens in Germany when they painstakingly decide to include new words made by combining two existing words), but you’re happy enough to take his coinage at face value and further compound that by deciding his intended meaning.
Furthermore, this passage suffers from the same as the previous passage: a lack of “and God said”. As Wesley Snipes’ Noxema Jones character says “Vida, we’ve been here before.” This is an extremely treacherous line of reasoning and can too easily be twisted to harm you should someone choose to oppress you as well. There’s something in Jesus’ words about “judge not…” And since we’re all guilty of that, maybe it’s best none of us keep dipping our toes into that pond.
Finally, it’s worth mentioning that you further undermine yourself through a muddled debunking of “masculinity”. I think it’s plainly obvious to anyone actually watching that this idea of “masculine” and “feminine” has adapted through time. So mistake #1 is assuming you can divine Paul’s meaning by using a word like “effeminate” based on our modern interpretation of “effeminate”. That bleeds right into mistake #2 which is to then weaponizing these ideas of “masculine” and “feminine” while at the same time debunking some of those very same rules. You may not have it both ways.
All of our Christian walks would be ever so much richer if we shut our mouths and opened our ears, hearts and minds to hear what the Spirit has to say to US. Once you get your house in complete order (my guess is this doesn’t happen until you’ve made your way into God’s presence), then you’ve got authority to tell others what their walk should be. Until then, probably best you put your stones back in your pocket and find something else to do while Jesus continues writing in the sand.
Paul the apostle would disagree with you.
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.
For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths.
amen, amen, and amen
Correction: Wesley Snipes was Noxema Jackson. That is all.
Korland my friend, you string together some pithy prose. I like.
GOD bless you and continue to stand up for what is right and true, Matt Moore
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God bless you, Matt, and never ever forget that the truth that Christ brought was also not popular with the people. But it burned in the hearts of those who were willing to humble their hearts in order for His gospel to change them. Ride on, my brother. To think that you are not more than 23 years old is very encouraging to me. Keep standing for the truth.
Hi Matt,
I firmly support your right to have your opinions on Matthew Vines and being gay in general, but you are doing the same thing you are saying about Matthew Vines. You are giving your own personal opinion on the subject and unfortunately that does not make you right. Matthew Vines is clearly a very intelligent and well studied young man and I personally side with him on this matter. I am a 61 year old gay man who has been on a spiritual journey since early childhood. Raised Catholic and attending Catholic school for twelve years started me on my path, and after decades of seeking the truth of God I have come to the conclusion that sexuality is a non issue with God. Please remember that you will not be the same person in fourty years that you are today and that your journey is not over by any means. No person who is truly seeking God can ever remain the same as they are today. If they claim to have found the final answer to their quest, they are dead in the same way as a tree that stops bearing fruit and willl eventually be cut off and discarded with the withered vines and dead grasses.
God’s word never changes.
1 Peter 1:24″ People are like grass; their beauty is like a flower in the field. The grass withers and the flower fades. But the word of the Lord remains forever.”
God cares very much about sexuality according to scripture even though many are saying otherwise due to the deception of human philosophy. God warns us about false teachers who wants us to return back to our slavery to sexual sin and Peter refers to these individuals as dried-up springs in 2 Peter 2:17-21
“These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.
Paul warned a young Timothy about what he need to do and how people would react to him. Times may be modern but people have not changed as noted by the following given by Paul about people’s attitude about truth. Matt Moore is different than Matthew Vines because he is standing with the truth not trying to make the bible fit his human desires. Christ warns us that world would not welcome truth but they would love false teachings because it makes them feel better about their sin.
Matt has a tough road ahead of him because Love tells the truth not a beautiful lie.
2 Timothy 1:1-5
“I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.
For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths.
But you should keep a clear mind in every situation. Don’t be afraid of suffering for the Lord. Work at telling others the Good News, and fully carry out the ministry God has given you.”
Awesome, Matt. I pray for you a lot…that the Lord would continue to encourage and strengthen you as you speak boldly in His name.
Oh and an aside, I’m from MS
had to chuckle at your picture of southern “masculinity/leadership”. SOOOOo agree! Many blessings, brother…
Matt, I appreciate your willingness to respond back to Matthew. I love you both and God loves you both, and you know that I also have struggled with same-sex attractions that I did not ask for. Like you, I have come to realize over many years studying the Bible that I do not believe God created some of us homosexual and some of us heterosexual. It has been a long journey for me to come to this point, and I am confident that God will continue to use my weaknesses to draw me closer to Him. I also appreciate how you pointed out that this is one of many issues that all of us struggle with on this side of heaven and is not THE ONE AND ONLY issue. I am praying for continued strength, wisdom, peace, and patience for you, Matt!
Matt,
Excellent exposition. I noted that you have seem to drawn in a lot of disgruntled people who cannot accept the idea that the scripture has clearly shown us that homosexuality is a sin so they resort to the argument that you are being judgmental or hateful. They will probably find a teacher who teaches a more “diverse, tolerant and loving” form of subjective truth as Paul warned Timothy would happen in the last days in 2 Timothy 4:1-4 and I think it applies to you too. He said the following
“I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.
For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths.
The reality is that many people are going to hate us for seeking to wake them from satan;s trap for them and will not want the hear truth.
I know that we will struggle with the sin nature in us but I believe that the gospel in the USA sometimes lacks the power of God in it because we do not seek God with all our hearts and rely on the power of the Spirit. There are so many incredible promises about the work of Christ on the cross and we can participate in the divine nature by believing them as Peter told us in 2nd Peter chapter 1. God is able to sanctify us into new people even though there will be attacks from our old flesh and satan to draw us back to the new life of sin.
This new mindset towards defining sin is opening up a Pandora box of problems for our society and churches who emphasized personal interpretation over scriptural objectivity.
Here is an example of this to confirm this point.
Recently Hollywood director Nick Cassevetes came out in favor of incest as reported in an interview with the Wrap. He just did a movie on incest and here are his quotes on it.
“I’m not saying this is an absolute but in a way, if you’re not having kids – who gives a “omitted language”? Love who you want. Isn’t that what we say? Gay marriage – love who you want? If it’s your brother or sister it’s super weird, but if you look at it, you’re not hurting anybody, except every single person who freaks out because you’re in love with one another.”
God loves us so much that he sent Christ who came in human flesh to die to destroy the power of satan over us but our society has choose to reject the gospel because they believe that we can do better job of creating our own god than the one revealed in scripture.
I think what we “Christians” really want and need is TRUTH on this subject. As I read and study this subject I see two choices offered, one to condemn the homosexual to a life of celibacy or two the church accept perverts and over look sin.
This is not an easy subject and we Christians need Jesus heart and mind on the subject not religious intolerance and judgment and defiantly not our Bible re-written.
There are homosexuals who have come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and our job as members of the body of Christ is to minister to them where they are when they come to that knowledge. Unfortunately I have witnessed all to often that when a gay person gets saved the rules suddenly change and they are treated differently then how they were treated before their conversion. They are beaten up by their new brothers and sisters and all too often leave the church for some place more accepting of them.
What does that say of us who profess to wear our saviors name and call ourselves Christians? Where is the healing and love? If homosexuality is sin then I ask why doesn’t the church wait and pray for the conviction of the Holy Spirit?
I want to talk to my conservative brothers and sisters who believe homosexuality is a sin; My wife and I are friends with a homosexual couple, they have been together 28 years, bought house, car, have bank accounts together etc. They have been together since age 21 and 30. We pray for their salvation. Here is my question, when they get saved how should the church receive them? Do we give them a time limit for conviction if so how long do we wait for them to be healed before we say “they never were saved” ? Can you see Jesus reacting exactly like your answer?
Sarel, thank you for your courage to believe, follow, and share truth. Your words here have touched me to rely more on Jesus. Onward Christian soldier!
I’m always at a loss how people can choose to believe something that was written thousands of years ago, and was most likely rewritten and reinterpreted numerous times by people that wanted to inject their own personal beliefs into it, and then treat it as though it has any relevance to our society today. Do you honestly believe that we have anything in common with the people of that era? (If you were somehow transported back in time, and you showed them your iPhone, I have no doubt you’d be burned at the stake for sorcery.) Do you honestly believe that those people had any type insight into human sexuality or knew of things like homosexuality or bisexuality? They were probably too busy just trying to survive for as long as possible — which for them was probably only 30 or 40 years. Keeping in mine that this is the same book that tells you the proper way to treat your slaves. I find it interesting how people can easily dismiss sections of the Bible that no longer apply to our society (I’m pretty sure we don’t stone people to death anymore; and we don’t treat women as subservient chattel.), but are unable to relent on the issue of homosexuality. I have the feeling that this has more to do with the church acknowledging that it is fallible, than the actual issue itself. If the church is wrong about homosexuality, then what else are they wrong about? By the way, the church IS wrong about homosexuality, when they continue to put forth old wive’s tales regarding homosexuals indoctrinating children into their “wicked lifestyles”. Yeah, lying in the name of God is still lying.
The reality is, there is more than enough psychological and scientific research that proves that sexual orientation is innate. Hormone studies, birth order studies, identical twin studies, brain scan research. Which begs the question, if God doesn’t approve of homosexuality (which people are born into), why did God allow people to be gay in the first place? Why hasn’t God “smote” all the gays? I know common sense and religion don’t get along very well. But this is common sense at the most basic level. We’re not talking free-will here. People don’t choose their sexual orientation. So, again, I’m wondering why the being that created the entire universe (billions of planets and stars) was unable to make sure that everyone’s sexual orientation was heterosexual? …and why didn’t Jesus condemn homosexuality? …and why didn’t it make the original top ten list if it’s so unbelievably bad? Obviously, I’m not religious… thank God. (pun intended) But as an outside observer, I have to question how a just and loving God would put gay people on this planet if he didn’t approve of them in the first place; and why would a just and loving God want gay people to spend their entire lives alone and unloved (in an intimate way)? …and why would a God who is micromanaging the cosmos really truly care if Matt Moore found someone to love and spend his life with — on that little blue planet out at the farthest reaches of the galaxy?
When I’m reading inane comments like, “God offers marriage to us heterosexuals because He know’s that sexual temptation is difficult for us to bare.”, I have a hard time taking any of this seriously. Really, Mike? So only straight people have sexual temptation? The reality is that MEN have stronger sexual urges than women. So your argument actually gives more support for gay men to get married, since their relationships involve two men instead of only one. Logic is a bitch, isn’t it? — Yeah, gay people are SO demanding to have the audacity to want to be treated like equal members of society. The nerve of some human beings! One has to wonder what your obsession about homosexuality is all about? All the straight people I know couldn’t care less if someone is gay or not.
Oh, by the way, non-religious straight couples have ALWAYS been permitted to marry in our country. So you might want to come up with some other convoluted reason why gay couples shouldn’t be able to have a civil marriage. Because religious arguments have NEVER applied to straight people, so they can’t apply to gay people either. In other words, your church doesn’t OWN marriage. It never has, and it never will.
Your arguments are built on personal assumptions without taking into account the amazing relevance that the scriptures have for us today. Christ did not condemn since it was already stated clearly in the the Toral but Paul did because gentile believers generally did not have the same background. God is beyond our scope and if he was then he would not be God. Yes we now use iPhone but the heart of man is still deceptive and inclined for sin against God. Nothing is new but a rehash of what man has always done from his darken heart. As we reject God then our ability to make moral decision is gone and instead replaced with hardness of the human hearts that begins to rationalize everything even the unthinkable. Here is an recent example of our moral inability to think correctly since we have abandon God instead now seek to trust ourselves as the final arbiters of morality.
Hollywood director Nick Cassevetes came out in favor of incest as reported in an interview with the Wrap. He just did a movie on incest called “Yellow” and here are his quotes on it.
“I’m not saying this is an absolute but in a way, if you’re not having kids – who gives a “omitted language”? Love who you want. Isn’t that what we say? Gay marriage – love who you want? If it’s your brother or sister it’s super weird, but if you look at it, you’re not hurting anybody, except every single person who freaks out because you’re in love with one another.”
We are definitely getting better without God and this is only the beginning of our downward moral decline in our society.
David,
I know I’m assuming this, but after reading your comment, I’d say your “loss” in being able to understand why anyone would believe in the Bible is a fundamental mis-understanding of what it teaches. Have you ever given it an honest and full open-minded study? The truth is, there is VERY much by way of evidence in support of it and its the people who claim its irrevelance who are in a position of misguided oblivion. Consider this: There are some forty authors who were involved in the writing of the Bible. The Bible contains sixty-six books written in three languages, some 1500-1600 years in the writing and yet – no contradictions! Not a single one! Some of these men who wrote lived hundreds of years apart and yet they all wrote in perfect harmony with each other. Here’s just one example: Isaiah wrote 700 years before Jesus Christ was born of Mary. Note what he wrote, “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isa. 7:14, KJV). This very thing was fulfilled in Matthew 1:22-23. The unity of the word in describing the place of Jesus’ birth, his life he lived, the way he died, his place of burial and his resurrection is without flaw. The Bible Theme: Some people claim the theme of the Bible is the Jews but the theme of the Bible is SALVATION for all mankind. The Old Testament’s theme was “someone is coming” – the Gospel theme is that “someone is here” and the theme of the rest of the Bible is “someone is coming again. ” Salvation is promised to the believing penitent, confessing, baptized one who remains faithful until he comes to take him home to glory. This is VITAL information that all need and it would be to your benefit to take time and give honest effort into finding out about this yourself instead of listening to common mistaken and prejudiced bias from those who don’t have a correct understanding of its significance.
The Bible is without contradictions only for those who can’t think logically. Just google the two words and sample away.
David0296, we believe that “old book” by FAITH. It’s very simple to do.
So it all comes down to a word, which appears to be men and bed, in plural form, a word made up by Paul. On the basis of this one word, you’ve decided to be celibate, and to impose celibacy on 1/10th of Americans. If I were gay, I would need a lot more evidence than one made up word before making any major life decisions.
Dear idland,
If you want to comment please first do the research. It’s more than one word (and that word really leaves little to the imagination) and at most only about 3% of the population is LGBT. The 1 in 10 is propaganda. We also don’t impose celibacy on anyone except ourselves. We are merely messengers – what people do with the message is entirely up to them.
Thanks,
Sarel
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When I hear people discussing the “true meaning” of the Bible and then start to quote what they read in a theology book or what they learned from teachers in College, I stop listening. These things are what humans say they have studied and researched from other books. Somehow they labor under the misconception that humans are smarter than God. The only time we want the Bible to mean something different is when the scripture is not what we want to hear so we begin to “research”! “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8) and again “Now the Spirit speeaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;”(I Timothy 4:1-2) “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome word, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting (being fond of) questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” ( I Timothy 6:3-5) “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.” (I Corinthians 3:19-20) There are many other verses that agree with these. The Bible is not faulty, WE ARE!
I appreciate your good and well-supported response, Matt. I think, in addition to the accurate textual analysis you made, you came close to striking at a core philosophical error from a Christian perspective. The error embraces the nature or personality one is born with as being sacred, and something to be maintained. The obvious fatal flaw is that, if your innate personality was something worth keeping, why is a new heart and new nature an essential element of salvation? Christ came to transform, radically, our old selves into the image of Christ. Can you imagine someone embracing any other aspect of our old sinful nature and saying that, “because I was born that way, it would be sinful for me to abandon God’s original intent in my personality.” Imagine someone cherishing a bent to anger, alcholism, lust, laziness or lying. We would easily spot the glaring error in thinking and would likely diagnose the problem as being unconverted. Spiritually blind people cannot discern spiritual truth (as you suggest in your response). You may have unique insight into knowing how to pray for those whose struggle mirrors your own. My prayer for you is that God continue to give you insight, and especially God-driven compassion for those still in darkness, and that your life becomes a beacon of hope for those trapped in the death of sexual immorality.
“It is simply a fact that the Bible does not discuss or condemn loving, gay relationships,” said Mr. Vines, eating an omelet at Tom’s Restaurant in Brooklyn the day after his church appearance. “The point is that these texts have a meaning, and the traditional reading of them is wrong. It is incorrect — biblically, historically, linguistically.”
“[K]ey for Mr. Vines was the realization that every instance of homosexuality in the Bible represented excess lust, gang rape or “unnatural” acts committed by heterosexual men. Portrayals — much less condemnations — of naturally gay men, for whom opposite-sex relationships are not an option, simply never appear. ”
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/09/gays-and-the-bible-.html
“Can you imagine someone embracing any other aspect of our old sinful nature and saying that, “because I was born that way, it would be sinful for me to abandon God’s original intent in my personality. Imagine someone cherishing a bent to anger, alcholism, lust, laziness or lying.”
David A, the bents you name are not “natural” but usually results of upbringing and/or circumstances.
The “natural” things are, for example, the four temperaments or extraversion-introverson. And sexual orientation.
Matthew Vines ,please tell me how G-D make mistakes and put you in a men body?
show me that in the bible.
also, the first commandment given to human was unite and multiply, where does that apply to your biblical view .
I ‘m not here to judge you or anyone but with your college degree ,you should avoid this themes ,you are what you want, and no scripture no matter how you turn it or try to twisted will do,only G-D knows what’s in your heart.
Wynn – I get your point, but be careful in what you label a commandment from God. “As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.” Gen 9:7 was a commission to Noah after the flood; not a commandment. This is a very critical point. A commandment is something we are told to do; a commission is something we are sent to do. I am married, and my wife and I have had 4 miscarriages. If it was a commandment God gave, being unable to carry a pregnancy to term would be a sin…but we are following God’s commission – we just haven’t been blessed with a child yet…I pray you understand the implications now.
Sorry Wynn – I missed your reference, you were probably referring to Genesis 1:28 “God blessed and said to them “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground”…still a commission – they were “blessed” and sent to this – it was a privilege God choose to bless them with – not a commandment.
Glancing at these comments, it’s clear this is and will continue to be a debate for quite a while. To me, it’s very simple. Either homosexuality is a sin or it is not. If it’s not, we can stop all the debates and discussions. Let’s move on. Yet, if it is a sin, then why should it receive more press than other relationship & sexual sins – adultery, divorce, sex outside of marriage, pornography, rape, abuse: http://www.richardtgarner.com/2012/08/embracing-sin-with-hearts-wide-shut.html
Rick, it receives more attention because of this very thing… the “debate”. Do we see any “it’s OK to be an adulterer” groups? …or an “it’s ok to be a pedophile” group…or, let’s try it this way: “it’s OK to be a (choose whatever sin you want here) group”? There may actually be a group or two “out there” which condone these types of sins, but those aren’t the debate here on this site. There really is no debate on this issue because the word of God is clear. The problem rises in the so called (mostly self proclaimed) “scholars” of our day who have decided that there have been thousands of years of mis-interpretation of scripture and Christians really have been instructed the wrong way the whole time. This is non-sense! An all knowing, God wouldn’t have let anything like this happen and reason dictates this is merely a group of people who want to live the way they want to live and also be right with God, too. I know this scenario very well… who wouldn’t want to live exactly the life WE FEEL is OK within us all and not be right with God?? How human is that? We want to feel like we are all OK, which has also brought about the notion that we are ALL going to heaven regardless of our beliefs and religions. This just isn’t the teaching of Holy scripture and neither is acceptability of a homosexual loving committed “marriage” either. It just isn’t found in a positive light within Holy writ…not even once! Yet, here we are in constant debate over a non-issue. It’s a ploy of Satan, clear and simple!
Gene,
You believe that “God would not let this happen” referring to the belief, by some, that there has been a mis-translation of scriptures all these years in regards to homosexuality. Look into the subject of the Sabbath; the Sabbath is not on Sunday yet most Christians all over the world believe and observe Sunday as a day of rest disregarding the 4th Commandment. How did this happen, I ask you? I find this is exactly what has happened with the translation of the word, “homosexual” used in the RSV; this word is not even used in the King James Bible. This alone tells me that it is Satan that has blinded this world to the truth. Apparently, it is up to each person to find the truth whether one is a Gay Christian or heterosexual Christian.
Paul, there is a difference between misunderstandings and misinterpretations. God hasn’t allowed misinterpretations of His Holy word. Misunderstandings are gigantic because of the effect that Satan has been allowed to have NOT because of the failings of God or His word! As far as the word, homosexual, itself, not being used until late.. this is a non-issue as well. Without using the word “homosexual” at all I remind you of what God says to us today, that He gave some up “in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves” . . . “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet” (Rom. 1:24-27). What “current” word would you use to describe this activity as quoted above? How can these passages be misunderstood? They are as plain as if the sexual activity referenced were drawn out in a picture. Yes, Paul, the world has been blinded to the truth, but after reading from Holy scripture, I’d say it’s those who are claiming the acceptability of homosexuality with God who are being deceived!
Thanks Gene for your response. I will try to give an answer later in regards to what you’ve written. What is your view about the debate about whom Paul is talking about in Romans 1? It appears that these people were heterosexual who first began worshiping idols, turned away from God and practiced homosexual behavior? Is Paul condemning the sex acts of these men and women themselves, or is he condemning these men and women for going against their sexual nature and behaving what is not natural for them sexually?
thanks, Paul.. and I’ll be reading/thinking about your question as well.
The great theme of the book of Romans is briefly laid down in 1:16-17: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed the righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written. But the righteous shall live by faith. ” The gospel is God’s power to save all believers. In it is revealed “a righteousness of God from faith unto faith.” God’s plan for making men righteous in His sight is contained in the gospel which was delivered “to the Jew first, and afterward to the Greek,” just as Jesus had instructed (cf. Luke 24:47-48; Acts 1:8).
Having laid down the fact that the gospel is a universal plan for obtaining a right relationship before God, Paul next developed the theme of the universal need of mankind for the gospel. God’s wrath is “revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness” (1:18). The rest of chapter one (1:18-32) is devoted to showing the ungodliness and unrighteousness of the Gentile world, and their need for the provisions of the gospel. Chapters two and three continue the argument, and show that the Jew needed the gospel just as much as the Gentile because he practiced the same ungodliness that condemned the Gentile.
The argument of 1:18-3:8 is summarized in 3:9: “For we have laid to the charge of both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.” It is interesting to note in passing that he does not argue that all men need the gospel because they were born totally and hereditarily depraved as the Calvinists maintain, but because they have sinned against God. Thus, briefly stated, the gospel answers a universal need: all men need the gospel because they are all under sin. My understanding is that “sexuality” isn’t mentioned or even inferred in any way in this instruction. However, immoral sexual activity is defined which can include any type of “sexual identity”.
Gene Jenkins,
This subject is still on my mind and I want to get back to you. My apologies if I misunderstood your statements concerning part of what you posted: “God would not have allowed His Word to be mistranslated.” You are right, the gospel message is still the same after 2,000 years. But what I meant is that there have been bad mistranslations of the original Hebrew and Greek words through the centuries especially in our modern translations. The word I’m referring to is the word “homosexual.” How much pain and duress and self doubt, and low self-worth this word has caused Gay Christians when they hear other Christians declaring that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God. You asked “what “current word would I use to descripe the activity above?” My Greek/English Interlinear uses the word “sodomite” for the word, the King James translation reads, “abusers of themselves with mankind,” which the New Standard Bible translates, “homosexual.” My studies show that any use of the word “sodomite” in the bible meant cult prostitute. Here is some information I found in a Bible Dictionary:
CULT PROSTITUE. Personel associated with pagan temples for the purpose of ritual intercourse, generally to appease the gods and ensure fertility. According to Deut. 23:17 the Israelites were forbidden to engage in cultic prostitution with either male or female prostitutes (KJV “sodomite”; “whore”), as encouraged in the worship among some of the neighboring nations. That the Israelites could not resist yielding to such temptations is evident from 1 Kings, which mentions male cult prostitutes during the reign of Solomon’s son Rehoboam (1 Kings 14:24; KJV “sodomites”). …2 Kgs. 23:7 even mentions rooms (“houses”) to accommodate cult prostitutes in the temple at Jerusalem.
I am not defending gay sexual behavior, and I do not know how God will judge gay Christians who are not celibate. There is a difference between the two words. I do think that Matthew Vines has taken on too much by asking Christians to accept him as a gay Christian and a possible gay marriage for him as it is not clear what he means in regards to sexual behavior. His is not a sinner because he’s a homosexual. He’s a child of God and there is nothing wrong with him. My purpose why I mentioned the Sabbath to you is to help show you how interpretations of scripture can change, how Satan deceives the world to believe that the eighth day is the sabbath and not the seventh day which is the real Sabbath. Satan has done this, in the same way, with the mistranslated word “homosexual”, it’s another attempt and his purpose to destroy some of God’s precious children. Check Rev 12:9.
Further notes: 1.Traditions do mislead and harm people be it by history or by bible miss-translations.
2. However, we can rely on the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth and convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. John 16:8
3. We can find the truth if we investigate. Jesus says “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you.” Matthew 7:7 and 8.
Thanks for letting me share this with you.
P.S. I prefer using my Greek/English Interlinear new Testament when checking out the original Greek words. I believe they are available at most Christian book stores should you be interested in purchasing one.
God would not allow mis-translation of His Bible….. but he would allow millions and billions to go to hell. He would allow Millions to die of starvation. He would allow war, disease and death.
NO, James… that does not come FROM God, it comes because man chose to follow Satan. It’s a consequence. The fatal part of choice comes when we deny God and lose our soul in hell. Nothing horrible in this world will compare to the eternity there will be without God. This is only a foretaste of the certain destiny where we will all are headed. Don’t be bitter against God, hate the true evil which is Satan.
Gene,
No one is trying to place blame. You stated that God would not ALLOW his word to be mistranslated. What does it say about God if he ALLOWS people to die and go to hell…. but he won’t ALLOW his word to be mistranslated?
The Bible states that it is not the will of God that any should perish and go to hell. The thing is that we have free will, we choose how we live our lives. God doesn’t send a person to hell, the person sends themselves through THEIR choices and not coming to salvation and repenting of their sins then following the teachings of the Word. Hell was made for the devil and his followers, therefore if we are not a servant of God, by default we are followers of satan. Does that help any at all to help you understand?
That’s it, exactly, Bryan! It’s a choice which will lead to an end. Our choice is one of two, it’s not God’s will for any to perish, but the unfortunate outcome will be that many will.
James you said: “God would not allow mis-translation of His Bible….. but he would allow millions and billions to go to hell. He would allow Millions to die of starvation. He would allow war, disease and death.” If this isn’t blaming God I must have missed something in what you tried to say! Please rephrase in another way.
Ok…. you state the God would not allow his Word to be mistranslated…… yet, you also believe that God allows (meaning he could stop it if he wanted to) millions to die and go to hell. Either God is messed up (worry more about his “word” than people)…. or your theology is messed up.
James, the only answer to your last reply is summed up in one word: “faith”. If the God in whom I believe can’t maintain His revealed word with accuracy throughout the generations, then He isn’t who He claims to be. If scripture is so easily manipulated in ways which corrupt its original message, then we, believers, are completely the saddest people on the planet! But I have confidence and my confidence is substantiated not only by the harmony in which the books were composed but also by the fact that the Bible is the oldest book in print. Parts of it were written close to 3500 years ago, nearly 1,000 years earlier than the oldest secular history in existence. It has amazing unity… The Bible was written by around 40 men, over a period of about 1600 years, and contains some 66 books. The writers thereof were from different backgrounds, cultures, and of varying occupations. Yet the Bible contains an orderly development of one great theme (namely the coming Messiah, his work, and the salvation He would make possible). Its writers complement one another, but do not contradict each other. Of course, the reason for this is the fact that it is the revelation of an omniscient, infinite God to man, and He simply used its writers as instruments to set forth His will, doing so in “words” which the Holy Spirit revealed (1 Cor. 2:10-13 ). It touches on all the known sciences, and records much historical data, as well as geographical information. Also, there are literally hundreds of Old Testament prophecies, written centuries in advance of the events foretold, which involved details far beyond the scope of human speculation, but which were fulfilled in minute detail. Yes, we concur with the prophet that the ability to “show the things that are to come hereafter” (Isaiah 41:22-27 ) is something which no mere idol and which no ordinary human being can do. But an omnipotent, omniscient God can do this with the greatest of ease! Take your Bible and read of Noah’s prophecy concerning Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Genesis 9) and then read the confirming secular historical documentation. The same may be said about Balaam’s prophecy concerning Israel (Numbers 23, 24) the prophecy concerning Israel’s downfall (Deuteronomy 28) or the approximately 300 prophecies concerning the Messiah — all of which were minutely fulfilled. Jesus said, “My words will by no means pass away” (Matt. 24:35). Peter declared that “the word of the Lord endures forever” (1 Pet. 2:25 ).
We must therefore concur with these statements by John Cumming (1860): “The empire of Caesar is gone; the legions of Rome lie moldering in the dust. The avalanches that Napoleon hurled upon Europe have melted away; the pride of the Pharaohs is fallen; the pyramids they raised to be their tombs are sinking every day in the desert sand; Tyre is a rock for bleaching fishermen’s nets; Sidon has scarcely left a wreck behind; but the word of God still lives. All things that threatened to extinguish it have only aided it; and it proves every day how transient is the noblest monument that man can build; how enduring the least word that God has spoken. Tradition has dug for it many a grave; intolerance has lighted for it many a fagot; Many a Judas has betrayed it with a kiss; many a Peter has denied it with an oath; many a Demas has forsaken it; but the word of God still endures.”
Part 2 to your reply:
“you also believe that God allows (meaning he could stop it if he wanted to) millions to die and go to hell.”
James, God doesn’t want anyone to die and go to hell. This is fully a part of the cost of what it means to have freedom of choice. As so many have stated in past remarks, “we are not robots”. We have the free will to live our lives as we choose. You can follow what ever religion you want or not follow any at all. However, God isn’t simply going to admit every living being into heaven on their own terms. He has given us not only His written book of instruction but His OWN son and those whoever will come to Him He will freely accept, but it is on HIS terms NOT ours. He created a way of our being acceptable to Him through the death (sacrifice) of His perfect son who bore our sins for us. I can’t see how God could be any more sensitive to the need of a sinful humankind than this! What good would it have been for God to have created beings who lived in perfection and suffered nothing to be with Him? It’s obvious that God seeks free willed beings who choose Him. Besides, having to live a life full of sorrow or pain, disappointment and sickness, etc. is nothing compared with the joy that will be ours IF we deny ourselves and follow HIM. Why wouldn’t anyone want to be freed of this world of imperfection and be released to eternal joy unimaginable? We see with eyes set upon Jesus and remember that this life is only a mist and eternity is never ending. I’d suggest that you look beyond this wicked and corrupt world and see God and what He is offering rather than losing sight of Him because of your judgement upon Him.
Interesting video, sarelpetrus! Just now saw it. Thanks for posting!
James, after giving it a couple of days and pondering our conversation, I’m thinking I may be responding to one scenario when there are obviously more. On the one hand, there is God who I firmly believe is in total control of everything, which includes His holy word. On the other, there is nothing keeping anyone from mis-translating any part of God’s word. This is why we have to be constantly diligent in making sure that what we are reading is accurate, tested and proved. This means we need to actually study it, be constantly reviewing what we’ve learned and be ready to defend it against false teachings. This is necessary in order to be able to correct the impressions of some who are accepting the false teaching currently being professed about homosexuality being acceptable with God (a “case in point”, so to speak). So, I’ll concede that the written book, itself, can be altered and wrongly interpreted. However this doesn’t mean that we don’t also have the accurate God protected word still available. This is where I keep my trust and anyone who begins teaching anything different which results in a radical swing from God’s feeling of finding any sin “abominable” to being acceptable should always raise huge red flag within any honest, God-fearing person.
Gene, What you said above is correct. For a long time the King James Bible was the Bible people read from, studied and preached from; and the Church had the victory. Now it’s to hard to understand, to confusing so other bibles were “translated” but there have been people that could not read at all, then after they got saved and began to try, God opened their eyes and they could read and understand it. Now this is probably going to be like hitting a wasp nest, however the King James is the only Bible I will read and study from. Funny thing, when I don’t know what a word means I just look it up. I have read other versions and a lot of them leave out passages and one version that I know of had a sinners on the panel to translate and decide what was put in and how it was worded. That is against scripture, plain and simple, how can the servants of evil (no matter if they wanted to do good) translate the Word of God.
For we know salt water and fresh water can’t flow from the same fountian. Like I said even if they had the best intentions, they were still not saved, and therefore open to the influence of evil spirits. Stick with the King James Bible, I say to me and everybody unless they want to learn to read Hebrew and Greek and can then translate it from the original text.
Morning, Bryan!
…Hey, I came across an article that might be of interest to you, concerning translations and versions of the Holy Scriptures. Here’s the link: http://danielbwallace.com/2012/10/08/fifteen-myths-about-bible-translation/
Hope you find it factual and helpful!
all the best!
Gene
Bro. Well done. Fair, solid, honest rebuttal – and the fact that you struggle with homosexual desires and feelings just goes to show how honestly and well you have thought this through. My sister lives as a bisexual, and I have struggled to understand how to think about her in this. So proud to have you in the family of Christ. We must make a stand for truth, and we must be clear about what we believe. These are difficult times. I pray God will guard you from the toxicity of some of these comments and that the spirit inside you will guide you into all truth. God bless you
It is very interesting and sensationally as How God deals with us as individuals, more also turning peoples life around in an miraculous manner which is beyond the understanding and imagination of man. God richly bless you and i pray for more grace for you to share the little you have, not only with me but with the world at Large so that they might also know the truth which will definitely set them free from the bondage and web of satan.
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The moment you used the word “retarded”, I knew there was no way I could possibly take you seriously.
First let me start by saying I do not know Matt Moore, nor have I ever met or spoken with Matt Moore. However, after reading his article, and reading the comments that followed, I believe that Matt makes a valid “argument” and one that is Biblically sound. I also agree that his initial approach would cause most of us to dismiss his contribution all together, but that is why I felt compelled to make a few comments myself, support what he has written to a degree, but try to do it with tact and grace. I am a student of God’s word – I always will be. I have a brother who is gay, and who is living a gay lifestyle. I am in full time ministry, happily married, and I have prayed about this very sensitive subject, and have done exegetical studies on all the relevant verses that pertain to “homosexuality”; specifically engaging in sexual acts with same sex partners. I have never had those feelings, so I am not going to pretend I understand what it is like. I do however have my own sins and struggles. I am a sinner, and a recovering “alcoholic”, and every day there are temptations placed in my path. I asked God to remove all desires for alcohol from my life, and He has. I cannot explain why, but I simply do not have the desire to drink any longer – however, the temptation, through advertising, other people, places, people, etc. is still there, but I simply have lost the desire to have a drink. This did not happen overnight; for years I tried to “defeat” this desire myself. I promised myself and my wife I would “only have three at any given time” or “I promise I’ll only drink beer” – for anyone who knows this struggle, this will all sound familiar. I don’t think anyone would disagree with me when I say the Bible is very clear about the evils of alcohol, and the pain that it can bring into one’s life: “Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” – 1 Corinthians 6:10; “Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise”. – Proverbs 20:1; “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit” – Ephesians 5:18; “Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who tarry long over wine; those who go to try mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart utter perverse things” – Proverbs 23:29-35. These are just a few verses, but there are several more in both the Old and New Testaments. So if you are true to yourself and understand the original text, I am assuming you would have to admit that being a drunkard, or drinking in excess, is a sin according to the Bible – which by the way I believe is the inerrant word of God (in the original languages). OK, so let me try to make this argument simple – Legalizing something is not going to remove the truth, or the consequences behind God’s commands; period. This notion of “God made me gay, and my gay is ok” is a legalistic world view, and Matt Moore, and many others, are ALMOST one hundred percent correct when they say “you have to have a deeply darkened/deceived heart to be able to believe such a foolish lie”. The truth is we are all fallen, and you simply just have to be deceived to believe such a foolish lie. If God indeed did make some people gay (which again is a world view, not Biblical; proven in the first chapter of Genesis) then I can assume, and even embrace the fact that God made me an alcoholic, and I should thank Him, and go out and drink until I die. Many who take the time to read this, at this point, are probably saying that I am making a ridiculous comparison; am I? Have you honestly never heard a physiologist, or physiatrist, a drug and alcohol counselor, an alcoholic or drug addict ever say “I was born this way” or “it’s not my / your fault, God made me / you this way”? of course you have – they have been conditioned by society (and Satan) to believe that. God created us to fulfill his eternal plan. God tells us through scripture what He wants for us – “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength” – Deuteronomy 6:5; “Love your neighbor as yourself” – Matthew 22:39; “We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” – Ephesians 2:10. We are also part of the war between God and Satan, and God’s ultimate plan to defeat Satan. By putting our faith in God, we can defeat Satan and his lies (see Ephesians 6:10-18). Finally, perhaps the most important part we play in God’s eternal plan is to point people to eternal life with God—through his Son Jesus Christ. The Bible calls this our “ministry of reconciliation” – 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. That’s why we are here. It’s also important to note that we have a choice in all of this. When God created us, he didn’t make us robots. God gives us freedom of choice. That is where the rubber meets the road in this argument – our choices to continue to live in sin are going to have eternal consequences. And if you believe Satan’s lies, and legalize your choices, that is not going to be an excuse – just as when someone commits a crime in society, and says “well I robbed the store because I was hungry, and I didn’t know that was wrong” – guess what…they’re doing time now, because ignorance of the law is no excuse. Matt Moore is also right in saying that “we live under the new covenant” but read Romans if you go to the lie that says “well we’re covered if we believe, so why not keep on sinning?” If we truly turn our lives over to God, and believe the redemptive power of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, we would all stop dead in our tracks, and want to do nothing but worship and thank Him for His boundless mercy and grace. Brothers and Sisters, as I said, I have no idea what it is like to live with the desire or temptation of same sex attraction, and I do deeply apologize to those of you who would tell me that I am wrong, or arrogant, in believing that THE ACT of homosexuality is a sin, but it is – period. The actual word itself “homosexuality” is a world label – it is not found in the original Greek or Hebrew translations, because the word didn’t exist. That’s precisely why I know, and believe, that God didn’t “make” anyone gay. We are all born fallen (not gay, drunkards, druggies, sloths, etc. – any label you’d like to insert) and unless you first understand the immeasurable distance created between us and our Creator after the fall, you can’t understand the impact of sin in our lives now. I have prayed and prayed about this, and I do believe that God loves us all, and He allows certain sins into our lives to mold and shape our character – I help other addicts now, because I know and understand what it is to live that life, and to have that burning desire to go out and get high or drunk. God used my sin to grow me, and now God is using me to bless others because of it. I truly do not believe the lie that I was “born an alcoholic”, and therefore do not believe the lie that “God made people gay”, or some people are just born that way. Again, we are all born fallen, and therefore prone to all types of sin – we just all happen to like different sins. God does not hate any of us, so those that would say “God hates______” (fill in the blank) are beyond misinformed, and should be dismissed on simple Biblical principles. God however, DOES HATE SIN, and He makes that crystal clear throughout the Bible. But the good (well really bad) news is that God HATES ALL SIN equally, and whether your engaged in same sex relations, looking at porn, cursing, stealing, or you’re out every night at strip clubs getting drunk, God hates them all equally, and they are all equal in consequence. Sin is sin – there are no “degrees” of sin, and this is one the easiest of arguments to refute – “I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” Matthew 5:28. I don’t want to get off topic, but it’s important to understand this concept; if you even think about committing the sin, you’ve already sinned. That’s why legalism is so deadly, and the power of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, is so needed. I pray this was a more Biblical approach to a very touchy subject. No of us are in any position to cast stones, and I believe Matt Moore, like myself, only have souls in mind when we try to shed light on the truth. I apologize in advance for offending anyone, and I pray God grants you the blessing of understanding, discernment, and knowledge of His perfect will for your life. Please remember we are all fallen, but through Christ and His promise, we can and will be reconciled to our God. In Him, your brother, John.
@ John said
“The actual word itself “homosexuality” is a world label – it is not found in the original Greek or Hebrew translations, because the word didn’t exist. That’s precisely why I know, and believe, that God didn’t “make” anyone gay. We are all born fallen ”
I agree with John. The word homosexuality, same sex relationships, lesbian do not exist in the Bible. The only references to it is in terms of a ‘type’ of sexual sin.
The concern I have for Matthew Vines assertions is how he raises up homosexuality and puts it on a pedestal (idolatry). Asking people to gaze upon this misunderstood thing. You have to look at the full sweep of history. Would God really hide the truth about homosexuality for all this time, making them suffer for thousands of years, just to, now, out of the blue, reveal it is ok? I am sorry it just doesn’t make sense to me that God would flip flop like that. Vines assertions claims that the Bible is silent on the matter of same sex relationships as if somehow good men of faith have suppress it. This assertion maligns all the men and women of faith who have walked before us.
The only thing of great importance to God which spans the history of man is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. We must recognize and define sin in ourselves correctly in order for that sacrifice to be valid. That is why people like Matt Moore have to vigorously oppose Vines assertions.
I agree with Matt Moore Vines needs to take a long hard long at what he has stated because redefining sin, is a grave responsibility.
May God bless those who read and have ears to hear the truth and not fall for error.
here’s a link to a lesson from a man I know and respect (highly)… it will bring further understanding to this issue: http://kscoc.com/?p=516
Kathy, where did you get it that Matthew Vines “raises up homosexuality and puts it on a pedestal (idolatry)”???
“You have to look at the full sweep of history. Would God really hide the truth about homosexuality for all this time, making them suffer for thousands of years, just to, now, out of the blue, reveal it is ok? I am sorry it just doesn’t make sense to me that God would flip flop like that.”
Imagine how it didn’t make sense to Pharisees when they waited for a Messiah but God flip flopped and sent them Jesus.
Awesome
interpreting the bible “literally”. manipulation. denial. self-annihilation.
OH AND FUNDAMENTALISM
Matt Moore wrote: “Basically, you say that if you’re born gay, same-sex relationships are okay. But if you’re born straight, it’s not okay. In fact, you claim that if a person who thinks they are gay gets married and has a family with someone of the opposite sex, then they are in sin and deep idolatry since they are doing what is contrary to their “true nature”.
If a person is gay and is naturally not attracted to the opposite sex, then would that person’s intention to make a family with someone they’re not naturally attracted to an act of lying?
“You believe, according to this Scripture, that God has made some of us gay and some of us straight, and that we should live according to how he oriented us.”
But you are gay since you remember yourself, correct? You already cannot, without feeling like a liar, live as if you’re heterosexual. Millions of heterosexuals may think it’s possible (and even try to assure you that God will approve), but you do know for sure it’s not.
At the same time, you’re sure that God won’t approve if YOU practice same sex. Then don’t practice it. By the way, not all people are promiscuous. Maybe it’s important for YOU to stick to celibacy because you can’t help being promiscuous – which is a sin, of course. Being gay is not a sin, but being promiscuous is.
Even if you believe that practicing same sex is wrong, try to ask God what about a same-sex RELATIONSHIP? Of course, others will always think only about bed, because all people inluding Christians think that when it gets to two living together. But it’s only between you and God to define if there’s a line you should not cross in a relationship.
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