This is such a hard question to answer… not because the answer isn’t clear in Scripture, but because of the radically differing opinions of people in the Church. When this question is asked, division immediately is introduced. But for the sake of souls, the deception must be confronted and the truth must be proclaimed.
This morning I ran across these articles:
“Evangelical Calls on Alan Chambers to Step Down Over ‘Gays Can Go to Heaven’ Remarks”
“Gay Bishop Commends LGBT Presbyterians For ‘Confusing’ the Church on Homosexuality”
So it’s evident that many influential leaders, and consequently much of their following, really believe that those active in the gay lifestyle can simultaneously have a relationship with Christ and be destined for Heaven. From other comments I’ve read from this point of view, it seems as though they believe the grace of God covers the lifestyle of unrepentant, active sinful behavior.
This sounds great. I mean, I want people to go to heaven… I want all people to go to heaven. I wouldn’t wish Hell on my worst enemy. But my only problem with this point of view is what the Bible actually says.
“Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?… just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”- Romans 6:1-2,4
“Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”- Romans 3:31
“If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.”- 1 John 1:6
“Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.”- 1 John 3″4-6
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”- 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
This all ultimately comes back to the question, what is the Christian life supposed to look like? The Scriptures are clear that those who are legitimate Children of God are radically transformed. They live a life of faith, in continual repentance from sin and they grow in holiness. But many voices from within the Church deny these truth’s by saying a simple profession of faith with the mouth is all it takes to be saved…… again, this sounds great, but not true. There is such thing as vain faith, and it will not save.
“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.”- John 2:23-25
Mere acknowledgement that Jesus is the Son of God is not saving faith or biblical belief. Faith given by God always results in a changed life. Faith given by God always results in repentance. So can an unrepentant gay person go to heaven? Absolutely….. if God grants them repentance and they turn from their sin.
As for the unrepentant sinner, the Scripture warns: “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.”- Hebrews 10:26-27
It’s hard to tell people that they are going to Hell if they don’t repent. It’s hard to tell people that they aren’t okay with God in their sin. It’s hard to tell people that if they do not turn, they will be eternally rejected by God and suffer endless conscious torment. But it’s the truth. God has called us to know the truth, to proclaim the truth and not waiver from the truth.
If you are a person active in homosexual behavior, and claim Christianity, please hear me when I tell you this: Jesus does love you, but you don’t love Him. You love an idea of Jesus you’ve created with your imagination that condones your sin and doesn’t ask to you to repent. That Jesus isn’t real. Please, get into the Bible, and just start reading. Ask God to help you.
“Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”- Mark 1:14-15
How many fundamentalist Christian question John Calvin’s salvation? None that I’m aware of.
Given that the man ran Geneva like a tyrant and was responsible for the torture, deaths and persecution of other Christians who didn’t toe the theological line, you’d think someone in the Reformed world might question whether the man was destined for Heaven, especially considering the fact that there is no record of Calvin having repented of this behavior.
Letter to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561. “Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.”
http://www.a-voice.org/tidbits/calvinp.htm
From what I can gather, the hierarchy of values amongst fundamentalists is this: persecute and kill other Christians to promote the doctrines of grace and you get a pass. Kiss another male on the lips and you’re destined to fry.
I don’t think there’s anything anyone can say that will convince me to embrace these values (if they can even be called values … more like the deranged reasonings of a sociopath).
James I don’t think Calvinist Protestants are longer killing others and I am pretty sure kissing another dude on the lips will not send you to Hell; you might get oral herpes and which you were in Hell…lol
That’s only because they can’t. Do you that Michigan still has on the books the law that punished same-sex sex with up to 15 years in prison. If it was a second time the man was caught, he could get up to life imprisonment for being a sexual deviant. Up to life. The law is inoperative thanks to Lawrence v. Texas and the Supreme Court, but it remains on the books, because the conservative Christians from around the state are against removing the law from the books, just to drive the point home. So, when you say Calvinist Protestants are no longer killing others – you’re correct, but it seems like a very insincere statement.
Right on Matt!
Great word here but the other words you did not bold are just as damning. As one who is living day to day consciously submitting and surrendering I still find the battle of the flesh very strong at times and sometimes I give into it. With a violated conscious I mope around for a few days wrestling in my mind with the thought if God is still pleased with me knowing He is but just can not fathom such great love so I still wrestle in my mind. My mind has gone from being at a restful still and quiet place to a place of worry fear and constant thinking unable to hear God’s gentle whisper. Desires of the sinful nature that I chose to gratify come back to life and the cycle of putting them to death starts all over again allowing the Spirit complete control and giving Him my body.
In the letter to Timothy Paul says that the goal is love coming from a good conscience, pure heart, and sincere faith. If we are to fulfill the command of love then we must have a good conscience, a pure heart, and a sincere faith all done by the Spirit. If it is done by the Spirit then we find change in every aspect of sin and not just the homosexual behavior.
Take a look at our American culture. Christians advocating that this is a Christian nation and voicing out against constitutional rights may not find homosexual behavior in their own life but possibly greed, idolatry (putting God in a box such as a church building and giving the idea that a prayer at the “alter” is more sacred than a prayer in ones own closet), get drunk, have committed adultery, are stealing in a “legal” way saying “it’s business not personal,” and other sins.
For many years the American culture of christianity promoted on a sub conscience level church worshipping rather than Christ worshipping and many still do today. I was raised in a church like such as many of the homosexual community were. So it does not surprise me that from the “church” we are seeing the predicted result of Romans 1 from the damning practice of this form of idolatry. Oh God help us all!
Tim, excellent points! I, too, often feel helpless in sin and ride the wave of strength/weakness moments. I agree that this is happening on all levels of sin and that the emphasis should be upon “sin” rather than the one that is frequently discussed in these writings. However this is the subject, in particular, and it merits special attention. There is one thing that I’m concerned about in your comment which is your reference to the church. It seemed to be rather negative in general. Correct me if I’ve mis-read your intention. The one true church was established by Jesus and something he loved as a husband would his bride. In its correct and scriptural organization, Jesus loved it and, therefore, we should as well. Love and cherish it, keep it protected, stable and strong. In return, we will be uplifted and loved, corrected and, when necessary, disiplined (much like a parent would care for their child). The church is a HUGE part of God’s plan and I think that there are too many who often times dismiss it and will also find themselves worshiping another god who accepts them without being a part of the church. The word “church” is defined as “the called out”. That’s the people not a building, and if one hears the words of Jesus and wants to be in His family we will, indeed, be called out! “And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:47) It is indeed an important part of our salvation!
Put down the Voodoo and call a psychiatrist.
I too believe in this church that us why I was calling it “church” in quotes. What we see today, in many cases, are buildings filled with the blind leading the blind. Self righteous ” christian” Pharisees, which demand much more special attention in my opinion. Sorry if you are taking this negative but as Matt suggested it’s hard to speak out on these issues without people getting their feelings hurt.
thanks for the clarification and no feelings “hurt” for me, just wanting to get a further understanding of what you were saying…
People become deceived unknowingly. Homosexuality for me was complete deception. Reality told me nothing that I did was good enough, nothing that I devoted to homosexuality wholly completed me, and I became all that I continually chased after. I deceived and I was deceived. I believed the world owed me this right to be loved and to love whom ever I desired. When I began to hear the truth it came like a flood into my heart.
Matthew 20:28
“Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
If Jesus Christ himself hadnt even come the world he created to be served, who did I think I was??? The world did not owe me anything and why I desired approval from the world out there baffles me today. Just about the only thing the world gives anybody IS rejection.
People believe I am not being true to myself when I share with them my testimony about Christ and my salvation from sin, homosexuality. When you make Christ Lord of your life you begin a process called sanctification, working out your salvation. It doesn’t happen overnight. God can change your heart overnight but your behavior you have to work out yourself. Daily.
Luke 9:23 (put your name in the blanks)
“then he said to them all, “If Jessie would come after me, Jessie must deny herself and take up her cross daily and follow me.”
I think this is great. The Bible says homosexuality is an “abomination” to God. Abomination means very displeasing.
Have you read any of the other things the bible calls abomination? Maybe you ought to take a little time to study the Hebrew word that has been translated abomination instead of looking to websters dictionary to tell you what it means. The bible wasn’t written in english you know.
Cindy you are right on in your comment. There are a number of Hebrew words that are translated as “abomination” with a number of different meanings. The word “Toevah” used in every one of the “clobber passages” that fundamentalists use in an attempt to validate their anti gay views, is actually speaking of abomination as it applies to “idolatry” (with good reason). If Moses OR Ezekiel had meant to speak of abomination as it applies to sexuality, they would have used the word “Zimmah” which neither of them did.
Ethan … You are using superficial reasoning .. not historical evidence, correct language translation, or context. The bible never ONCE says that homosexuality is an “abomination”. Not one single time.
really, Will? can you back that up?
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
for a man to lie with a man as with a woman is what?
Jon, thank you for your reaction to my post. First, I should clarify that I am not a Fundamentalist, nor am I an Evangelical. Using God’s word as recklessly as yanking passages of scripture out of their context, with no attention whatsoever paid to historicity, cultural setting, original language or; as I said, context, is not something that is done among the Christians with whom I identify. I’m not going to argue with you, any more than to tell you that if you had bothered taking the time to read the context of the verse you lifted … you would see that Moses was writing of the Qadesh an Qadesha who served as temple prostitutes in the fertility cults of Canaan. HENCE God instructed Israel earlier in the passage that they were not to DO according to the traditions of Canaan (Fertility cult Idol Worship) because .. HE was their God. Other than that, I have nothing to say but what I already said. Using scripture in such a reckless and superficial manner does not become someone who, I assume, seeks to honor God.
@Matt,
Outstanding post!
But why should we be surprised that more and more Protestant pastors and Protestant churches are becoming more tolerant of same-sex coupling?
I can reasonably assume within four or five decades all Protestant churches will be accepting and approving of same-sex relationships and homosexual sodomy. Even performing same-sex “marriages” ceremonies in their churches. At this time it will be the Catholic Church alone who will be condemning homosexual behavior as immoral.
Prior to 1930, all Protestant churches condemn the use of birth-control as immoral. The Anglicans at Seventh Lambeth Conference changed all that, and within 35 years almost all Protestant churches stopped viewing birth-control as a moral evil but a moral good. The Catholic Church again stands alone, even if the majority of Catholics use birth-control. So I ask you: What is better a good Protestant or a bad Catholic? For me I will take a good Protestant over a bad Catholic any day of the week!
Look at divorce. This was something that was condemned by Christ Himself. Yet all Protestant churches now allow it’s use. The divorce rate among Christians is staggering. This didn’t happen over night obviously, but developed over the course of decades. Again the Catholic Church is standing alone here. Yet Catholics are divorcing, willingly giving up their place at the Eucharistic feast.
What of masturbation and fornication? Again since the sexual revolution of the 1960′s more Protestant Churches have changed their view from one of immorality to silence or even of acceptance. The Catholic Church condemns masturbation and fornication as immoral. Yet many Catholics are humping their unmarried partners and habitually doing the five-knuckle shuffle, some repenting some not.
What of abortion? The intentionally killing of yet to be born babies. Sure many Protestant churches view this as intentional cold-blooded murder-the taking of a innocent human life. But not all Protestant churches. The liberal churches long ago started to see abortion as a “woman’s choice”. In turn Christians themselves have condoned the mother as the executioner and her womb a morgue.
We have went from a culture of life to one of relativism and culture of death.
The problem isn’t with sacred Scripture the problem is within us.
We Christians can not change the world until we change ourselves. It’s that simple.
I am unsure if it does the person with same-sex attractions and who is sexually active to preach to them they are damned to Hell.
That judgment is for God alone.
I think it is much more important to show by example…preaching fire and brimstone can be a huge turn off for any of us.
I am not talking about patronizing gays and lesbians with a water-down version of the Gospel. Rather, I am thinking you by living your Christian faith joyfully can be much more effective.
Graciously living a Christian life is living life generously, no?
By your own personal example you can lead others to Christ more abundantly.They will say:
”Anyone notice how cool Matt is? I want some of that-let’s go find it!”…
and whoosh…..there is our loving and merciful Savior full of compassion and love..how awesome is that?
Okay see you!
Davide, you are correct about all these things, but the Catholic Church is also guilty of many of these things. After all, they did choose to bless Newt Gingrich’s third marriage to his second mistress. It’s not like they were forced to … they chose to. I’m not interesting in condemning anyone (not even Newt!), but biblically-speaking, the woman he’s married to now is not his wife.
About masturbation and contraception you are correct, though: there is no consensus within the Protestant denominations about the morality (or immorality) of these things, even within those who pride themselves on being strict inerrantists.
1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
1 Corinthians 1:18-2:5 is an aside from the discussion on division dealing with the issue of the message of Christianity and how it relates to the issue of division. If we more greatly focus on the message, we will have less focus on divisions. The Holy Spirit radically distinguishes the wisdom of men against the wisdom of God.
Matt, thank you for being so up front and “straight” forward, no puns intended. If any man be in Christ, he (she) is a NEW creation–not a self-justified sinner. To him (her) that believes gives He power to become sons (and daughter) of God. I am so glad I am in no bondage to what I was in and am free with His power to become someone totally different. Keep on posting, Matt. Keep spreading the light.
Again…EXCELLENT column, Matt. This is a “conversation” I had with a (I guess you would same former) friend, who’s two sons are both gay. She knew that I was a former lesbian, but for some reason she believed that I had embraced the “gay church” concept. She was wanting to write a book about the amazing grace that Christ has for gay people. I wrote her that “yes Christ love and grace was amazing”…so amazing that He didn’t want us to remain in a life that brought such spiritual pain, seperation, and destruction. It was perhaps a two page email about how Christ had redeemed my life from my destructive behaviors and that, though He loves me despite the fact that the sexual temptation is still there, His desire is that I not give into it. Needless to say, she “unfriended” me.
It is sad that the PC Culture has so permeated our churches, because now, in our declaration of loving and accepting homosexuals, we are loving them all the way to hell. It is my belief, and I think that James 3:1 support this, that those pastors/priests who support the “ok to be gay” agenda will face even harsher judgement when The Day comes; because it was their call to admonish those who sin, but instead they encouraged them. I firmly believe that these pastors/priests will fall under the judgement described in Ezekial 33 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die’, and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.” (v7-8)
to sappi60: …just read your comment and wanted to say “amen”! I find myself woefully lacking when I, too, know the truth and fail to pass it along to those I know who are living a life in opposition to God. There is so much work to do and the workers are few! Thanks for the thoughts and reminder!
Matt, At one time I would have devoutly believed all that you say in this post (by the way loved the Dear Gay Kid blog) but in the past 8 years this daughter of a Southern Baptist Preacher and ex-gay woman (married now for 20 years with 4 kids:) has had a revelation of God’s grace that has helped me see the Scriptures through a different filter. I would like to encourage you to read Grace Walk by Steve McVey (also a former Baptist preacher) and then I’d love to talk. Question to consider…does the professed born again pastor in bondage to gluttony also have to repent to truly be saved (no longer falling to his food addiction)? Because as Paul warns against sexual sin he also discusses this more palatable sin in the same Scriptures (In 1 Corinthians, the Bible says don’t indulge your body with food or sex: “‘Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food,’ and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is meant not for fornication but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.) Another question…since we know homosexuality is an abomination what about the other sins that God calls an abomination in Prov. 6:16-19? What if someone who thinks they are saved is still failing miserably and is lying or creating strife? Are they going to Heaven or not? Grace walk deals with these most difficult questions. Food for thought is found at: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/05/my-take-will-there-be-gays-in-heaven-will-there-be-fat-people/
Blessings Brother.
Since this is a twitter post on the sin of homosexuality, let’s stick with it. Most homosexual supporters always “group” homosexual sin with other sins to dumb it down. It’s the “hot potato” argument. I won’t feel as bad about what I’m doing if I can lump it in with everyone else so I don’t feel as guilty. Guilt owned is less guilty shared. Yes, Bible believers know that all other sin is sin. If the topic was on lust, stealing or adultery, the posts would focus on that. Since it’s on homosexuality, let’s stay on topic. Let’s not deflect the obvious onto something else to make us all feel better about the actual sin we are doing. This is the current rhetoric of many sermons and blogs alike on the sin of homosexuality. Due to the culture we have from the liberal left, tolerance has replaced truth and it has handcuffed many in the evangelical community from speaking out on this subject. Matt’s refreshing and only pro-claiming Biblical truth.
So, if I assume that you are correct and that gay sex (lets be real here it’s not about “lifestyle”, gay people like straight people live all sorts of different lifestyles) is sin, I am left with this question, do you believe this is a special sin or that any unrepented-of sin will send you to hell? Is an unrepentant glutton going to hell (all other factors aside)? How about an unrepentant greedy person? An unrepentant gossip? If you answer yes to all of these questions, here’s another one. Are all the Christians who owned slaves before we (collectively as a church or as humanity take your pick) came to realize that owning another person is immoral and died not thinking they had anything to repent of in hell? I could go on, but I suspect that unless you are intentionally ignoring it you can see the pattern that is developing here so I’ll cut to the chase. Who is in heaven? If you truly believe that the blood of Jesus can only cover sins that are recognized and repented of, who is there among us that can confidently say we are going to heaven? Think of all the things you know to be sinful and all the people that regularly commit those sins and are unrepentant including those that fail to see it as sinful or think it’s no big deal. Now, after you have taken time to do that and when (if you really went through a comprehensive list not just your top 5 sins list) you have eliminated most of the Christians around you, your next task is to think of which of those things you may still do and haven’t repented of and repent now. And then when you’re done and have managed to convince yourself that you are one of the very few people that is actually going to make it into heaven, there is just one thing left to consider: If it doesn’t even matter whether or not you recognize the sinfulness of that thing that you are still doing and haven’t repented of, what are the chances that you have figured out every single sin possible. Still think you’re going to heaven? Think again. If everybody that has any sin in their life that they have not yet repented of when they die goes to hell, then we all go to hell. I guess I’ll see you there.
I honestly believe God knows our hearts. I believe God judges our hearts, not our works.
Amen Jessie .. and even in that “we are accepted in The Beloved” .. not for our “knowledge of good and evil” .. or our good works.
Kudos to you for bringing confusion into what Matt is actually writing about. And by the way confusion is not of God!! Now my answer to you is that is why we need a Saviour, Yahushuah(Known as Jesus) and as He told Nicodemus we must be born again. May the Father draw you and open your eyes to the truth!!
I am glad to see your post, Bianca. One of my commitments in life is to show people by example that there is an enormous difference between Christians and Fundamentalists. First of all I don’t know who the heck Yahushuah is .. that’s likely a new one to all of the readers here, but i digress. Your Pharisaic Fundamentalist reaction to Cindy shows exactly what I mean when I say that you people are committed to dogma and religion, not relationship with Christ. Although “kudos” isn’t the correct word for you (or for me) to use, I will say, “kudos” to you as well for helping me show others the difference between religion and relationship.
kjuos
Well done. If you wish to dismiss everything that you or anybody else finds confusing then I guess the bible is not of God so discussing it is all moot anyway.
And yes, that is exactly why we need a saviour, gay or straight. Though you missed it, that was my point. Either we believe that we are saved by faith, through grace (which is undeserved) or we believe that we are saved by doing all the right things which is impossible and thus we are all doomed to hell (not just those that offend in your pet sin or Matt’s).
I highly recommend you read Romans. Take the verse and chapter divisions out and read it as the letter it was intended to be. Paul does a brilliant job there of setting up his audience by making them feel all superior early on as he talks about the “others” of the day (in this case the gentiles) and then goes on to turn it around on the Jews he is writing to and tells them that they are no better after all. It’s unfortunate that most Christians today are so caught up in the added chapter and verse divisions that they completely miss what Paul is doing and actually use “Chapter 1″ to condemn the “others” of our day (gay people) instead of reading on to “Chapter 2″ and realizing that Paul is actually talking about them and their self-righteousness.
But then again, I suppose if you have an aversion to all things that might require a little extra study to get past the confusion you probably don’t like the writings of Paul since even Peter admits that the things Paul writes can be difficult to understand or in other words, you may find them confusing and not a good place to start if you need to be spoon fed simple things.
Matt
Your post here is right on. Everything that you said here is oh so true, valid and right on everything. There are many so called “Christian” religions that do condone Homosexuality as they have ordained many active Homosexuals, male and female, in their ministries, such as the ordaining of a female Homosexual priest and the ordaining of a male Homosexual bishop in the Episcopal Church. Throughout the Holy Bible, it says that the sexual activity between two members of the same gender is wrong, unnatural, unacceptable and inappropriate. But not too many people accept that. They seem to think that since they are the way they are, it is something that they can’t help being and in their own way, they are saying; “Look God, I know what you word, the Holy Bible, says, but since I am the way that I am and that there is nothing that I can do about it, I have to live my life as such. I hope that you will understand.” I am not saying that they put it just like that, but in their own way, that is what they are saying to God. But unbeknown to them, God will never understand that because his word says that this type of thing, two members of the same gender having sinful sexual activity with each other, is wrong and as stated, sinful and unacceptable. Keep up the good work Matt. You’re doing well in your journey out of Homosexuality.
Being a regenerate person is a life long struggle; daily prayer, confession of sin,scripture study, fellowship with others, etc. should become a habit. Christ told us that the “WORLD” would hate us! The disciples were and still are our example. They followed Christ and didn’t have the happiest of endings. Also friendship with the WORLD is basically hatred towards Christ. Speaking spiritual truth goes directly to the soul which will naturally arouse the darkness within them to come out fighting. We must continue to speak the TRUTH IN LOVE for the purpose of saving souls.As the unregenerate church fills with more wolves it will and does make our mission that much harder. Remember what Paul said,” Don’t give up the good fight!
I guess it depends on if its your penis and what you do with it that is your entrance to heaven or if its Jesus and His perfectly fulfilled gift of salvation. Fundamentalists, not being Christians, can believe whatever they wish .. however as for ME and my house .. we will put our trust in The Lord. How truly sad when people continue (as did the first Adam) to live according to the knowledge of good and evil, when God has made provision for us to live according to the law of the spirit of LIFE. He IS perfecting all that concerns us .. even those who are his beloved LGBT sons and daughters.
We all have to start somewhere and as we we enter as His children we grow in Him and, now with His Spirit of LIfe instead of Law, we allow Him to face the battles of the flesh out of which comes our sexual immorality, idolatry, witchcraft, greed, jealousy, envy, etc… It is only He who puts these things to death and transforms us into the spiritual being He originally planned for us. This is not work that saves, this is the work that comes by being saved which is part of God’s plan. According to my flesh, I am homosexual. I cannot change that and even if i could.. why would I? Because in the end, any desire that is coming from my flesh is the Spirit’s desire to put to death and to give new desires that are from God and of the Spirit. (Romans 8). I was born homosexual because I was born with a sinful nature as the result of the 1st Adam. The 2nd Adam brought a new birth, that of the Spirit and not of the flesh. We now indeed have access to live according to the Spirit. Romans 7 speaks of a way of trying to do good based on human effort and according to Law and one statement that I find very helpful is that it is sin LIVING in me wanting to practice homosexuality not me because in my mind I desire to be holy as the Law requires. But this living life form (called SIN) living in my flesh is much more powerful than the law of my mind making me a prisoner to a body of death. Even though I might feel homosexual, the Spirit has revealed to me that I am not homosexual but it is SIN living in me that is homosexual producing the desires of homosexuality within me. Therefore I am able to separate myself from it and not claim identity with it and progress to Romans 8 changing the way I live from law abiding to that of the Spirit and allow the Christ to live in me and fight Sin while I rest in Him. My body now is the Lord’s and the Lord is for my body. I am not my own. I have been bought with a price. I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me and the life I now experience is His life as I live by faith in Him who loved me and gave himself for my release as a prisoner of SIN (a living lifeform stronger than I but much weaker than Him).
May I just say that, while I largely agree with what you have to say, I would caution you against falling into the trap of writing off all fundamentalists as not being true Christians. In some ways that makes you a bit of a fundamentalist yourself. God looks on the heart and one can have some severely messed up theology and still be a sincere follower of Christ even if a bit deluded. I for one am extremely grateful that God did not abandon me in my fundamentalist days but rather patiently and gently lead me towards the freedom that Christ bought for me and continues to lead me, sometimes in leaps, sometimes in baby steps, but always He is right by my side even when I stumble. I sometimes jokingly refer to myself as a recovering fundamentalist as I realize that the fundamentalist mindset is not one that one just leaves behind and never has to deal with again. If you are fortunate enough to have never been sucked into it, then be thankful, but don’t discount your fundamentalist brothers and sisters who may be a little bogged down in their fundamentalism but are still God’s children and in many cases still very sincere in their love of Christ even if they need a little help learning how to show that love to those outside their circle. Ultimately, if we look at ourselves in the hard light of truth, we all need a little help in that department…
Thank you Cindy. In truth I know you are right. Yours is a reminder that one can loathe the fact of fundamentalism while recognizing fundamentalists just as you said. I spent the first major part of my life in that world, and like you I am thankful that God sees our hearts over and against the belief system that is nothing but toxic and life destroying. Sometimes I let my feelings get ahead of my brain and what I know is true. Thanks for the nudge!!
Your writing is amazing. I guess you know that your going to be attacked for telling the truth. I will definately pray for you each day. Your going to reach a lot of people that aren’t hearing the truth anywhere else.
AMEN!!!! Praying with ya!!
Anyone in the real world knows healing is a process (like addiction or any sin or thing that is not God’s ideal) and to think black and white on this is just stupid! Do some really think God will throws away His loved children to the flames because the are banged up a bit and sometimes stuck in sins? Idiots who know nothing of God’s love might think so. Do we have to reach some level of perfection before God accepts us. No. Jesus accomplished that perfection for us and credits that to us freely as we believe into that finished work and put our trust in Him not ourselves! He loves us as we are, not as we should be, as NO ONE is as they should be (although some will deceive themselves into thinking they are or deceive others into thinking they are). But, will some people hate God and run from him their entire lives. It seems, sadly that this may happen. Bottom line is that if people think they can love more than God can, they are idiots! I don’t hesitate at calling them this, as Paul calls them a lot worse in the Book of Galatians (people who add rules to grace for total acceptance before God). The bible is a complex book that says A LOT of things. Real authority does not come from the academicians/theologians but the Spirit. That is why both Jesus and Paul place so much emphasis on The Spirit. You can know the book but not know Jesus personally. Some of the biggest Bible quoters/thumpers I find often lack in this department. Everything I have come to know about God personally does not contradict the Bible but sheds much light on many words the legalists gloss over or minimize. Love mainly. God is absolutely madly in love with sinners and He saves them for Himself. This love transforms, yet no perfection is obtained until the not yet. Those who want God get God. Those who don’t, don’t. And He does not burn them forever for not accepting His radical grace.But that is an entirely other debate.
“It’s hard to tell people that they are going to Hell if they don’t repent. It’s hard to tell people that they aren’t okay with God in their sin. It’s hard to tell people that if they do not turn, they will be eternally rejected by God and suffer endless conscious torment. But it’s the truth.
Baloney. It is almost laughable that people think HELL as eternal conscious torment is solid theologically (I just got done studying that subject from all 4 main viewpoints). Just do an exhaustive study on the subject of hell and you will find the traditional view weak at best. Also, I find your view of repentance here questionable. Yes, turn to God. As far as “it’s the truth.” Well, it might be yours, but I am a life long student of the Bible and I don’t see things as narrow as your interpretations here. I doubt God is as narrow in His ability to save or love people unconditionally. Do I know who He will or won’t save? No. Do you? No. He is a personal God not a systematic religion. I believe He will save anyone who wants and loves Him.
Mark, though your response wasn’t to me, I just want to applaud you for what you wrote. To embrace the theory of eternal torment is to say that God lost and the devil won the battle .. and it also means that someone was lying when he said that “NOT ONE WAS LOST, but the ‘son of perdition’” (who I tend to believe was satan himself). I am curious to know which book(s) you read with the four views, or perhaps you studied other essay material? I am familiar with a number, including those by Greg Boyd, and Dr. Thomas Talbott. God’s mercy is SO infinitely greater than what western Christianity and Fundamentalism has ever imagined.
Some people are broken just about beyond repair, and to just get up in the morning and simply live is a miracle, let alone achieve some fantasy level of holiness! Some, just to hold on to the crumb of salvation through what Jesus did for them is a stretch. It is for people like this that I will always advocate. The ones the “church” rejects and throws out and says won’t make it. The ones that hearing “they are going to hell and they won’t make it” is damaging enough to send them over the edge. We are all grossly disobedient! It disgusts me that so many think they are not! Or not like those other people! That attitude absolutely sickens me. Sit in a counseling office for 20 years and hear what that Gay person went through. Hear of the muck and mire people have trudged through to survive and you might get a hint of the compassion God has and is going to have on those He simple has compassion on! These arguments are ridiculous. I’m so sick of pope who don’t know Him personally speaking on His behalf because they have half the Bible memorized!
Again .. huge applause to you, Mark!! We may not agree on everything, and we may not even agree on the gay issue (I don’t believe that being gay is in any way a sin .. though both gay and straight people are capable of sinful expressions of their sexuality.), however what you have written in this response as well as the other one profoundly expresses my own heart in this matter, and I appreciate your excellent manner of sharing that. We absolutely agree on the things you have expressed.
Thank you Mark. Your wisdom is much appreciated.
well said. “speaking the truth in love…”
I wonder, how does this line up with your recent admission that you view pornography regularly?
I know you’re struggling with it. And I am certainly not saying this to get you down. But I sincerely want to know how one can reconcile the two – continual sin and being saved.
This is a bit late but, the reconciliation lies in what “turning from your sin” means. Matt no longer believes viewing pornography is morally benign or a good thing even though he still struggles with it. He used to believe it was either benign or good before Christ. Now he does not and acknowledges the law is good even though he cannot meet it. That is the difference.
Paul himself struggled with a thorn and did things he did not want to do. He reconciles the teaching in Hebrews above when he speaks about this in Romans 7.
I am a lesbian who is coming to know Christ. I am struggling because I am in a loving commited relationship going on 6 years and don’t know how I could ever just walk away and leave her alone when I know I’l spend the rest of my life thinking about her and wishing to be with her. I have been researching the bible for truth and reading everything I can in order to find salvation. I have to say that reading that post from Tim spoke a truth into my soul. Iv’e noticed no one has replied to it. It is not what I wanted to hear but after so much research into what Jesus spoke Tim’s message seemed to reflect that truth. If we would learn to walk with Christ and divide our flesh and spirit and trust in God that we may take refuge in his son Jesus Christ by denying our flesh and learn to walk in the spirit then we are able to over come the sin’s of the flesh threw the power and blood of Jesus Christ. This makes so much sense and is so beautiful to me!! But there is just one thing I’m torn about.. What about LOVE?? I have been told that the love I feel for my partner is not of God but I assure you it is not any different then the love a man and woman have for one another. If God is LOVE then how can LOVE ever be wrong?? Although most people don’t see it this way, my love for her is not based on sex at all but the connection we have. As for denying to have sexual relations with her (what I have done for some time now) causes problems in the relationship itself. It would cause the same problems between a man and women. Wasn’t it peter who smoke of it was better for a man not to marry so they could be closer to God(If they had that gift ) But to go ahead and marry so that they not burn in passions?? Not all of us have the gift of being able to with hold from sexual relations and being without a mate. God also said Man was not ment to be alone. There is also the passages in the Bible that talks about summing up the old laws into two commandments ”Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul” and ”Love your brother as yourself” I know that Jesus didn’t come to do away with the old laws but to fufill them but are we missing a major lesson here?? Or am I just a blind sinner who doesn’t want to turn away from my sin’s?? I know I have felt the Holy spirit and that is what has inspired me to seek Gods truth. Yet I am told that confusion is of the Devil and I am terrified at being deceived!!! I am only trying to find peace but it seems no matter what I choose my heart is broken………… Salvation shouldn’t feel this way I know that much yet those of you who tell me I don’t love God enough I tell you I LOVE him so much that my soul is in constant torment!!! But I am told that if I don’t turn away from LOVE I will NEVER see his LOVE =( I wish I was never born
Stephanie-
There are going to be so many people telling you how to do this walk and how your “this” and your “that.” You continue looking to The Lord for your worth and you WILL see how God sees you. You are SO on the right track. Listen, I went thought this, the same confusion and worry and fear. If you believe on The Lord Jesus then you are just as saved as any of us. Just because it may take you longer to overcome or work through a struggle doesn’t take away your salvation. You are a child of God and he will never leave you nor forsake you!!! Keep seeking Him and he will make your path straight! It is important however to build up a support system around you of people that love you and people that want to help you grow in The Lord. If you are interested in reading my testimony I would love to get it to you. Maybe it could help…I will keep you in my prayers and I know you will get this Stephanie. God WILL make a way for you. He’s obviously I already begun to…keep your head up. You can do it!
Hi Stephanie, I just read your comment and am touched by the way you are seeking God and truth! You are definitely not alone in your conflict and God knows this. So many have gone through this scenario and have been pulled out of sinful activities that seemed so right, yet were not right in the sight of God. He had given us the way out but often times this way isn’t an easy one. The feeling of happiness you seek will come only after you get through being torn each way. I know this, myself, to be true. Even then, satan will continue to produce any feelings he can within you to re-ignite the feelings you had and make you want to go back. The peace of God will keep you wanting to be near Him but knowing God must be continual and well fed, so to speak. This is why it is imperative to find the one true church that is following the correct path and associate yourself within it.Here’s a link that will help you in your study: http://kscoc.com/?p=622 Keep studying, praying, seeking. God says in Matthew 7:7-8 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.” May you find the peace you seek…it definitely is there for you when your determination increases to the point where nothing will keep you from having it.
Thank you for your kind word Jessie. If you have been threw what I am struggling with then YES I wold love to hear your testimony!! do you want to Email me?? Its breitiganstephanie@yahoo.com
I emailed you!
Jessie is the madhouse by the way.