[The average person probably assumes that many of the things I write about are hard for me to be so transparent with, but that surprisingly isn’t the case. I can talk about my past, my homosexual encounters, my promiscuity, my current struggle with homosexuality, etc., pretty easily... which I contribute completely to the grace of God at work in me. But today I’m going to write about something that actually is hard for me to communicate publicly. But on this one, I know for a fact I am not alone. I know almost every guy faces what I'm about to hit on, and I hope that my thoughts on the subject might offer some insight to someone, even if they're jumbled and scattered... I'm no skilled exegetist.]
I am addicted to pornography.
It’s more difficult than you may think for me to write out those five words. Only in the past couple of weeks have I been able to even be honest with myself about this addiction, much less really tell anyone else. A couple of my friends know that I “struggle” with watching porn, but they don’t know of the extent to which I “struggle”. I think I’m ashamed and don’t talk about this because pridefully I feel like I of all people shouldn’t have this problem. As much as I try and help people out of sexual sin, I shouldn’t be partaking in it myself. While this is true, that I shouldn’t be partaking in porn, it is my pride which makes it so hard for me to admit that I struggle so badly with it. My reputation is my biggest idol.
As I revealed in my February post entitled, “My 2-D Devil”, throughout the entire year of 2011, I only remember falling into this sin once or twice… which was a remarkable improvement compared to me watching it daily for at least five years, prior to my conversion. I don’t know why it wasn’t as much of a struggle for me last year, but it wasn’t… the temptation just never seemed to arise in my heart.
But as I began to talk to other people about their addictions to porn, around January of this year, I began to fall again. The first time I viewed it after going so long without it was absolutely devastating to me. Granted, much of that devastation was due to my elevated self-righteousness at the time… I had been convinced that I [keyword “I”] had conquered this sin. I viewed myself as being on a higher spiritual level than those who struggled with pornography. When talking to people who were so desperately distraught over their repeated failures, I remember thinking, “Just stop doing it! It’s not that hard!”
Over the past 7 months, I have become that person who won’t “just stop doing it”
Rather than improving in my battles against this temptation, I find myself at least once a week in agony over my disobedience, yet again. Sometimes I can’t even find it inside myself to say “I’m sorry God”… because I believe if I were really sorry for grieving His heart, I would stop. But rather, I honestly tell Him, “I’m sorry that I’m not more sorry”. I believe whole heartedly in being honest and transparent with the Lord… not for His benefit, He already knows my heart. But for my own benefit. It’s in being honest with ourselves and with God about the state of our souls that the Holy Spirit begins to show us the rocky crevices in our heart where sin hides.
Though my spiritual life hasn’t been as bad as it could have been the past 7 months [which just goes to show the great patience of God], it has nonetheless been filled with emotional roller coasters. After I watch porn, I am overcome with sorrow and regret, usually for days. I am saturated with the fear that my faith could possibly be counterfeit. But more than anything, I’m just confused. Confused about why I keep doing this, confused about why God keeps allowing me to do this, confused about my confusion, and so on. But after some time, the guilt starts to fade away and I start really “feeling” the promises of the Gospel again. I feel connected to God once more, and assured that this time I won’t give in. When the temptation comes, I’ll just remember how bad I felt and for how long I felt so confused, and I’ll fight it. I will not, under any circumstances, watch porn.
Then I watch porn.
And the cycle has been repeating itself now for what seems like an eternity, slowly but viciously eating away at my soul. Just yesterday, I spent at least two hours watching pornography…. right after reading my bible and praying. I found myself at the end of myself… despaired, angry, saddened and disgusted. This morning when I woke up, I continued in my prayerful repentance before the Lord, and on my way to work I felt different than I normally do just hours after watching porn.
I didn’t feel like sorrow was weighing down upon me.
- “Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows..”- Isaiah 53:4
I didn’t feel like punishment was awaiting me.
- “God made [us] alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”- Colossians 2:14
I didn’t feel like the past two years of pursuing God was all fake.
- “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ”- Phillipians 1:6.
You see, although I know these verses well and have indeed recited them to others countless times, I haven’t fully trusted them myself. My heart hasn’t fully taken hold of the promises of God and in my double-mindedness, when the winds of temptation come I haven’t had His Word deep in my heart to anchor me in obedience. I start having thoughts like, “I don’t know if that really applies to me… I hope that’s true, but what if it isn’t?” and in this weakness I give myself over to pornography. In this double-mindedness, I have proved the Scriptures true in being unstable in all my ways.
Like Calvin says, “A perfect faith is nowhere to be found, so it follows that all of us are partly unbelievers.”
But I believe this morning the Lord told me, “Matt, I forgive you. I forgave you before you even knew you were forgiven. Look at the Cross of my Son. Look at the Blood of my Son. All the evidence of my unfathomable mercy is there. I love you, I’m for you, and I’m not leaving you. Now praise me for what I’ve done for you. Praise for what I’m doing for you. Praise me for what I will do for you. Praise your way out of pornography.”
Praise my way out of pornography? Now this is something that was new to me, which is why I know it was God, not me. But it makes so much sense….. so much sense. When do we praise God the most? When we realize how good, gracious and merciful He is toward us. But I have not had that mindset when thinking of God…. and I haven’t for awhile.
For the past year or so I’ve been viewing following Jesus as a “don’t do that… or else” way of life, in some respect. Grace has been something I talk about often, but not something I feel like I’ve been fully allowing myself to experience. In some weird way, it’s like I’ve still been living under the law… and if I view myself as under the law, I give the sin that resides in my flesh power. Our nature is to rebel against God’s law, and we see in Romans that the law was put into the place so that our sins would increase and we would see our need for Christ. Don’t believe me? Check it out:
“Now the law came in to increase the trespass”- Romans 5:20
“ For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law..”- Romans 7:5
Okay, now this one is long, but please don’t skip it! Really meditate on what Paul is trying to convey.
“What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment,deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.”- Romans 7:7-14.
You see what he points out there in verse 14? The Law is spiritual, but he, along with all humanity, is of the flesh and sold under sin. Our flesh is what arouses in rebellion when confronted with God’s holy and good commands. [You can’t believe the Bible without believing we are as corrupt as it says we are] But, as regenerated followers of Christ, we are not merely of the flesh any more, but also partakers of the Spirit. Unlike unbelievers, we are spiritually alive and love God… while simultaneously inhabiting flesh that hates God. This is what people mean when they say Christians have two natures. In basic terms, every Christian is a little schizophrenic, so to speak. Our spirit [our “inner-being” as Paul points out] being now alive, wants to do good and obey the Lord… while our flesh remains opposed to good, bent toward evil and disobedience.
Okay, now with that being said, I want to really get you thinking about something…stay with me.
As God’s beloved children, if we do not view God as the Father He says He is, but as an angry dictator with lightning bolt in hand– ready to strike us down at any moment–we (in some respect) place ourselves under a law– without even knowing it. In doing so, we not only adopt a false God-view, and subsequently a false world-view, and through fear we endow our crucified flesh with power as it begins to “seize an opportunity through the commandment” (Rom 7:11). Might I add, the commandment that we have placed on ourselves.
Our faith in Christ freed us from the law, it’s requirements and it’s penalties. But through partial unbelief, we place ourselves under a new law…. which has the same effects on our sinful flesh as the old law. Like Romans 7 points out, sin seeks it’s opportunity through the commandment. If the commandment says “don’t do this”, our flesh says “I’m gonna do that.” If the law says yes, our flesh say no. If the law says stay, our flesh say go. This is how polar opposite our fleshy nature is to God.
Our new law we make up:
- God says has forgiven us in Christ. We say ”God will forgive me if I do this and don’t do that.”
- God says, “You trust in My Son and there’s no condemnation for you.” We say “If….”
- God says He will finish the work He began in us. We say, “But what if He doesn’t?”
Although true believers will not lose our salvation or faith if we take on this false-dictator view of God, we most certainly set ourselves up to live a life full of failure, fear and confusion and forfeit the great pleasures God is offering us in knowing Him. Sin that may have been previously put down by the Spirit will arise and wreak havoc in our lives because our fear–coming in through unbelief in the promises of God–quenches the Spirit while enticing our flesh to rise up and hunt for forbidden pleasures.
When we don’t see God as the loving Father that He is, grace and mercy seem like unrealistic things for Him to show toward us. But God is our loving Father. Please hear me when I say that! [Trust me, I’m preaching myself just as much to anyone else reading this] He is full of grace and unlimited in mercy, and irrevocably forgives anyone who trusts and follows Jesus. Don’t pride yourself in thinking that you are going to the exception to that fact. Put to death the deeds of the body by realizing, believing and meditating on the truth that you are not under law awaiting legal penalty, but under grace encompassed by the incomprehensible love of God. Yes, incompressible, so stop trying to understand how he could love you. Just believe that He does.
- His Grace makes you clean.
- His Grace makes you un-blameable.
- His Grace makes you holy.
- His Grace makes you His.
“Yet you are holy, enthroned on [inhabit] the praises of Israel [God’s People]”- Psalm 22:3.
God’s presence is manifested amongst our praise, and where God’ s presence is manifest, His grace and mercy are manifest. If we don’t feel the grace of God, or have trouble fully believing that we are recipients of that grace, praise Him anyway.
- Praise Him for being gracious and good even when you can’t feel it and don’t believe it.
- Praise Him for being unchangeably compassionate and patient toward you.
- Praise Him for working all things, even your seasons of rebellion, for your good.
- Praise Him for not leaving you to yourself every time you turn away from Him.
- Praise Him for rescuing you, instead of letting you try to rescue yourself.
- Praise Him for loving you just as much today as He did the day He bled for you.
I feel like God put it on my heart this morning to write about this and immediately I thought “I should wait until I have this under control to speak out about it”, but again that is my pride getting in the way of me being honest, humble, transparent and relatable. I want people to know they aren’t alone in this.
I understand this war with pornography is not over and I do not know that it will end in this lifetime. I know temptation is already on it’s way, yet again. But now I know how to fight it, effectively, and how to conquer the daily battles….and it’s definitely not with my own will power. I don’t need to “muster up” my own strength and resilience. And it’s also not in hoping that temptation will stop coming. All I have to do is really believe God.
- I have to believe that He is my Father —because He says He is my Father.
- I have to trust that I’m His—because He says that I am His.
- I have to believe that I’m clean— because He says that I am clean.
- I have to trust that He’s in me— because He says He’s in me.
- I have to believe He won’t leave me—because He says He’ll never leave or forsake me.
- I have to trust that He will comfort me— because He says He is the Comforter.
By faith, with no doubting, I must see and believe that everything I want and desire is found in God— and by faith, I approach the throne of Grace in time of need and will receive the help that I ask for….. and so much more.
Even when we aren’t being tempted, we must feed our spirits constantly with the grace and truth found in the promises of God in Jesus Christ. We can’t allow our minds, even for a second, to stray away from the grace God gladly bestows on us. The best defense is an offense, and our offense is the grace in truth.
So while my flesh, sold under sin, is very much addicted to pornography… my spirit is addicted to God. And that’s a blessed addiction that can conquer all others. I’m going to praise my way out of pornography.
I soberly and cautiously want to end this with a warning, though. If you don’t really love Jesus Christ, strive to follow Him, love God’s law or feel any remorse for your sins, you are under the real law and the real penalty for your sins is coming to you. Believe in Jesus Christ, forsake your self-righteousness, licentiousness, or whatever it may be—and follow Him. Ask Him to change your heart, radically and eternally, and to set your affections on Him. He is the way, the truth and the life and no one will inherit eternal life but by Him. The grace that I have spoken of throughout this whole post is found only in the refuge of Jesus Christ—who had no sin, but became sin…. so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Believers and Unbelievers: Repent, and believe the good news!
Matt, this was a very impacting article. I applaud yor willingness to be so transparent. I wish you could make it in booklet form. We would put it in our church for someone else searching for help. I will pray you get complete victory over this. You are a man of courage.
Thank you Matt for writing this! We do need to praise our way out!
My family uses X3 Watch Pro. It is an accountability program for 7 dollars a month. You download it and set up you accountability partners. They receive a report of what you have been watching on the internet. It is AWESOME.
Praying for you. Thanks for another great post that will help others struggling with this and also serve as a warning to parents regarding their childrens computor time.
Matt, you are an amazing example of what can happen to a person when they allow God to move in their life. I too deal with this “addiction”. I have to tell you I appreciate your willingness to be transparent, it has helped me. I am reminded how Satan can use something God designed by twisting what the original intent was. God made men visually enhanced. We are led by our eyes. The intent, in my belief, was to see and remember how good God is by seeing his creation. Genesis showes us that even God did this. (Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good.) we are supposed to see the good God has given to us. We just need to keep our eye on the prize (Him) and continue to praise Him for all He has done.
Thanks, Matt, for gathering your thoughts on this!
I appreciate your Passion and transparency. Be encouraged friend!
Hi Matt, I, too, thank you for transparency. I struggle with some addictions and I see that these things you bring up here are the answer to this issue. I realize that sexual sin has more of a hook in us since there is a bonding that happens even without actual “physical touch”.
I would like to mention a couple of programs out there that deal with this sort of thing.
One is called “Pure Desire”. it talks about what happens in the brain with porn and sexual sin in general… It is an excellent program and both men and women are being helped through this program.
Life Skills, International – this program is a more general one. it doesn’t directly deal with porn or sexual sin but deals with past issues which is what drives these issues. It provides the tools to work through these issues so that the internal “wounds” are healed properly. I have been through this program once and am in it a second time. it is amazing! I have found so much healing in my life!
I give Jesus all the glory, honor and praise for this transformation in my life!
thank you again for sharing Matt. Keep on keeping on!
The Bible says to confess our sins to each other and pray for one another that we may be healed. (James 5:16). I say a prayer for you now & will continue to do so when it comes up in my mind or spirit. Also, just food for thought, not trying to pretend I have the answers, but just be careful that you’re not moving ahead of God. Sometimes we are passionate & zealous for our God and can move ahead of Him. If you talking to people about their sexual sin is causing you to stumble maybe you need to take a step back & really hear the Lord & make sure you’re where he wants you right here & now. Remember to guard your heart ALWAYS & be careful what you let in. you give the enemy an inch & he’ll take a mile. Give God & inch & he’ll give you a mile.
“Draw to Me & I’ll draw near to you”. Let Him pour His Truth into your heart & spirit. Resist the devil & he WILL flee. Persevere & gain strength & endurance & continue to grow & flourish in the things of God and our King Jesus Christ.
Good words and so true!
Matt-thank you for sharing this trial with us. I am sure it has was difficult. If you feel you have a porn addiction have you ever considered professional help? I remember reading a few months back a post you had written and you mentioned being exposed to porn at age five watching it frequently for 20 plus years? But what ever you decide you have our love and prayers.
Matt-thank you for sharing this trial with us. I am sure it has was difficult. If you feel you have a porn addiction have you ever considered professional help? I remember reading a few months back a post you had written and you mentioned being exposed to porn at age five watching it frequently for 20 plus years? But what ever you decide you have our love and prayers.
Hi Matt. Brother, the only thing I can tell you is you can 100% be free. I am living proof as I saw porn at six years old and viewed it until 47 yrs. old. I lost a 22yr marriage and my two daughters because the porn just wasn’t enough as I became so desensitized. I started to seek sexual relations with men while married. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I went to an awesome place called Pure Life Ministries, which deals with Christian men struggling in all types of sexual sin. This was the only thing of all programs that I either got involved in or checked out that worked. The focus there is Jesus Christ and not your sexual sin. It’s not blaming others and a bunch of psychobabble. They dealt with my pride big time and I found out all the guys struggling in sexual sin are LOADED with pride. We love when people tell us how good we are and we desire their praises. This isn’t good for the sex addict. Jesus must increase and you must decrease. So, after almost seven years of porn freedom, and freedom from bisexual experiences, I am in the best place I’ve ever been.
Almost three years ago the Lord through a series of God ordained events, brought an ex lesbian into my life and after a time we got married. She was from California and I’m from New York. After about a year into our marriage, the Lord started to create a ministry that has us speaking on radio programs, in Churches and even at political events. Did I create this or go looking to be seen? Absolutely NOT! And in September Our Pastors and elders will officially recognize the ministry before the congregation as a viable legitimate ministry with the laying on of hands and blessing. I obeyed the voice of God to go to Pure Life and God after six years later started to open doors that I never even looked for. I wasn’t ready when I first got out of Pure Life as the attention would have inflated my pride and I probably would’ve fallen.
The ministry that the Lord is building for me is called,
Heart Of Purity Evangelism (HOPE)
To see a very brief testimony of Marsha and myself go to:
http://www.heartofpurityevangelism.com
There is so much more I could say Matt, but feel free to contact me.
Thank you Matt for being so transparent. The Word does say, “Confess your faults to another that you might be healed.”. Also, your position on the issue is closer to the Kingdom than you think. Hebrews 4:9 says, “…there remains a rest to the people of God…he that is entered into…hath ceased from his own works….labour to enter that rest.”. You and I cannot achieve righteousness through our own fleshy efforts. Even if we could it would be considered as “filthy rags”. When you enter into your praise and thanksgiving (which Father is so worthy of a whole lot more) you are ceasing from your own labors and entering into a faith position that moves the hand of God. When we praise, He shows up (He inhabits our praise). When He shows up, change is inevitable. When I use to struggle, one verse was a constant comfort. Phil. 2:13 says, “for it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his pleasure.”. You can’t change your will but He can. The goodness of God leads a man to repentance. He knew you when you were acting out. He knew you would be struggling with issue when He chose you. And He knows how to work in you the willingness and the ability to do what is right–that way, you know it was Him who made it happen. Keep on praising Him Matt. You are not alone. Your problem is our problem too and I know you have many who are praying for you and agreeing for God to finish the work He began. Love you. Keep up the awesome posts. They are life changing.
Alrighty then,
The thing about pathologies, paraphilias and sexual orientation, is that gay people are the only one who are forced to CONFLATE all those issues and blame being gay, for the paraphilias and pathologies.
Het people don’t have to do that.
So, if your issue which is typically sexual repression of your homosexuality, and you act out with the other factors because it’s unhealthy to repress one’s ORIENTATION, not the other factors: then this religious factor getting thrown in, isn’t going to help you.
It’s part of the problem, not the solution actually.
Why aren’t you questioning why heterosexuals don’t have to question THEIR orientation when pathologies present themselves?
And why aren’t you questioning why they don’t blame it either, nor for most, even have to repress their heterosexuality to not be addicted.
And what about gay people who don’t have pathologies or fall into the traps most of you did?
These are fair questions. So, you’re free to answer them, since none of you are restrained about sharing the answers you believe you have.
Regan, at any time were you ever the village idiot?
Glad to see you back Davide, been missing your to the point comments!
@Gene and Davide:
So, once again, I can expect no thought provoking, intelligent and mature answer to my most important question. Especially about when it comes to credibility, and groups traditionally kept at the margins and abused by society for what they are, not for what they actually do to people. And you’re not helping my experience with ex sexuals or those claiming changes to heterosexuality are you? At one time, I sought out wanting to understand and accept. And each time, I got nothing but Bible quotes, or non answers, as I do still. Your comments are hypocritical to who needs to be accepted the most, and what good that acceptance does in the larger world.
It requires a very toxic environment of fear, insecurity, isolation, contradictory expectation and prejudice to produce ex gays and ex gay therapy or outreach. It’s not healthy, especially for gay children or the need for the public to be educated about gay people, who they are and their quest for fairness and understanding.
Why should such a toxic environment that feeds anti gay prejudice be tolerated?
If you’re offended by my comments, then be stand up and answer them like decent men.
I’m offended by people who think that the ex gay industry deserves praise and unchallenged access as if there has never been any serious damage done to how gay people are treated.
And a good Christian would and should care about that.
“The scornful man has hardened his face against the truth” (Prov. 21:29). The wise man said, “Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words” (Prov. 23:9). Not only will he harden his face against the truth, he will maliciously attack the one teaching it. Yes, Regan, I use scripture to answer you, otherwise I’d be doing the same thing you are doing…twisting words and using callous philosophies simply to your win your arguments, which seems to be your most important goal on here. I am here to listen to those who are interested in the subject that Matt has written about, not get into verbal altercations with you or anyone else.NOT because I can’t, but I refuse to do this here.
Well, Gene, if that were true, it contradicts your complement to Davide’s snark.
I read a wealth of philosophers, and my head is loaded with quotes and words of wisdom since the writers of the Bible. But I don’t go there, because it puts those in supposed conversation at a disadvantage. I’m hardly callous, I’m just not PRAISING Matt, nor his experience. There is a difference. I’m trying to engage the fact that young gay people, who are dependent on adults who believe and expect them to change, are put at a disadvantage by ex gays and ex gay pastoral counseling. Mores the point, there hasn’t been the same and vital opportunity for the alternative. This is the truth. But no one here will engage that necessary part of this, instead…here comes the religious quotes. Which can only make a person think you’re not listening and don’t care to. Something that gay young people are confronting. People who won’t listen, but expect to be listened to and OBEYED, and use God as the reason they should.
The opportunity for gay young people to reveal themselves and be heard, is overshadowed by the overbearing influence of religious communities who believe they deserve deference for everything. And insist they are causing no harm, when they ARE.
So, when I asked about cred, and the opportunity to learn about gay people, you blew it off.
Well, why?
Oh, and I’m hardly twisting anything. I’m posing a reasonable question. I’m asking you to examine something as simple as what modern society does in reconciling ancient mores that don’t apply, to actions that have always had the same result and how to know the difference. What about that?
Instead of just answering the question in a normal conversation, you start up with the Bible quotes, it’s the way arrogant people behave to keep someone they think doesn’t know as much as they do at a disadvantage. Speaking a different language around someone you know that doesn’t speak it, for example.
In the general timeline, gay people haven’t had nearly the opportunity, nor choice to be who and what they are in order for the world to know them truthfully.
Segregation works in that way. As long as the beliefs have the advantage, gay people and the truth will never been known.
Faith communities can control all the information, and disavow or deny anything gay people have to say or reveal.
So, your quoting doesn’t help.
Just explain why gay kids have to suffer the price of religious people having full access and control over gay lives?
And yeah, you owe it.
Because the torture that even kids THOUGHT to be gay endure is something you BETTER own, or else YOUR cred is out the door.
Regan, your question has validity however it isn’t the subject of this particular posting. Why don’t you create your own blog and address the issue there?
btw…I work in law enforcement in a science division (photography). And the issue of pornography and the psychological implications are something we have to study. For decades, the control of pornography and who most profits from it, are heterosexual males. Women and children, of course, are ever the most vulnerable to it, and it’s most prevalent victims. This is an extension of the alpha male controlling interest in the weakest members of society. Just as anti gay sentiment is an extension of misogyny.
There is no religious philosophy I have found, that engages this issue that honestly, not even here. Only in areas where women have become more involved in areas otherwise closed to them, has this changed. The most influential religions of the world, are themselves misogynist and controlling of the weak.
Females, and gays are the most repressed members of the human race. Their sexuality has been considered fair game for controlling and in ways that they have not benefited from their own sexual self determination because of the inequality and inequity of sexuality altogether. Matt’s article is rife with the damage that can result from that repression, which puts young people at risk of sexual overcompensation.
Blacks and their sexuality in this country has been similarly misunderstood and misappropriated. Thus, the kinds of overcompensating that’s in the hip hop culture. Blacks in America have been greatly influenced by Christianity in this country, forced into it, and to obey it, regardless of not being allowed literacy or equal participation in religious leadership until very recent decades.
Yet, black women have suffered a great deal from the sexual disparity that the legacy of Jim Crow still has effect on.
So you think you know all there is to know because you can quote the Bible?
Unless and until you acknowledge the legacy of abuse from religious influence on members of humanity with the least amount of ability to challenge it’s unfairness, then you don’t want to know.
Think about the difference between an action and a reaction. If you’re going to accuse me of scorn of your Biblical quotes, think about what the scornful actions of those who use the Bible have done to provoke it.
Davide, you are hilarious! And correct, especially about the availability of professional help. A couple of suggestions in addition to Greg Bejian’s would be NARTH and New Life Ministries (“Every Man’s Battle”). Also, be aware that in California, not surprisingly, the legislature has introduced a bill to make it illegal for us to offer help or essentially even ask about sexual orientation for anyone under 18. In fact, this blog itself could be considered a violation of the proposed law as currently written. How’s that for tolerance? Or is it repression?
The approach of ex gay therapy and it’s diagnosis, requires a great deal of religious based belief, social prejudice and lack of qualitative structure to their work. NARTH works from a template of causes of homosexuality, when there IS no cause. It’s not a pathology, or paraphilia and no credible psychiatric body would say it is. Nor do any credible doctors say that sexual repression is healthy. If a teenager presents symptoms of depression, or anorexia, or drug use…blaming their sexual orientation, instead of other environment factors, won’t help them at all. There are other forms of therapy availabale that would be more effective, rather than a therapy that’s more likely caused their plems.
Davide, at any time, could you sack up and act like a grown man? Your answers would only amuse people who act like a sand box mob, instead of adults. Easy to do behind the safety of your computer keyboard. You and the majority here, add fire to my purpose, and it’s all to easy to see how weak you are and why.
@ Gene, genetics! Blame my mother I get it from her!!!
@Dr. Ryder, Isn’t California official name: “Peoples Republic of California”? Kinda sounds communist and it kinda is!
@ Regan, are you flirting with me? FYI: taken!
I don’t mind you talking so much, as long as you don’t mind me not listening.
Davide, You act like the village idiot.
Regan, it’s a pointless exercise trying to have a sane discussion with these fundies.
They are totally hung up on other peoples’ sex lives and changing them to their so-called “holy” vision.
Regan,
I don’t think he once blamed homosexuality for his problem with pornography. It has nothing to do with that specifically, but rather with an issue of lust and according to scripture is wrong. Also, I have heard that researchers say that it is unnatural for people, especially children to be exposed to pornography. It is known that people who molest children have problems with porn. Now, I am not saying that all people who watch porn are child molesters, but I think that exposure especially in children has the potential to cause a youth thinking to be developed wrong. Sex is a gift meant to be celebrated in marriage between a man and a woman, to keep one from fornication and also for procreation. Homosexuality is clearly against what is natural. My proof? When was the last time who women or two men naturally produced a child. You see, nature is proves that the relationship between same sex couple is not right. So, I would come to the conclusion that to be gay is against natural therefore needs to be corrected. My mother used to work at a prison which was call a correctional facility where the inmates were not only captives but attended classes to help with their thinking fallacies. Rather that society saying, hey they are criminals and were born that way lets just let them be themselves, they aid them in correcting wrong thinking that leads them to making harmful choices. Tell me Regan, is their a possibility that Matt and others who believe like him are right and you are wrong? Is it possible that giving into homosexual behavior is falling into a trap?
sorry for my grammatical errors..did not proof it!!!
I agree with you and you’re correct about exposing children to porn, or engaging them in sexual activity.
You’re also correct that it skews their ideas regarding objectification and non reciprocal, non consenting sex.
Where I’m not wrong, nor anyone else who understands what sexual orientation is, and puts historical context to how gender and gender ideals are skewed, isn’t either.
Gender and sexual orientation are morally neutral. But those of a certain gender (female) or orientation (gay) are and have been more abused or repressed than others and they are set up to be more victimized by or attracted to porn.
Gender and sexual orientation are factors of human biology that have nothing to do with objectification, pathology or anti social behavior.
But those who ARE objectified, have been the most excluded as sexually self reliant and equal. Which, I will say again, are females and gay people.
However those who continue to take religious cues and conflate these things, are wrong to do so. And it’s caused tremendous damage.
As for your also conflating accepting criminal behavior as opposed to gay behavior, that is again a blatant example of disparate comparisons of things that have nothing to do with the other.
To abuse, assault, to steal or hold someone captive or do anything forcefully against their will, are all anti social.
Homosexuality presents as none of those things. As for the gift of sexuality between men and women, I agree. But that obviously isn’t the ONLY gift, nor is it impossible for two men or two women, obviously created in nature to SHARE the gift between each other as well, to be denied that gift. There is not now, nor anything that’s ever been healthy about fomenting or continuing the belief that gay people and homosexuality are incompatible with what is good, structured and nurturing in the world. Look around you, there are all manner of things that can and should COEXIST and must. Parent and non parent married couples coexist. Christians and non Christians do.
I work in law enforcement. Your mother’s experience in a correctional facility was about correcting anti social behavior that is dangerous, that betrays public trust.
I bet not even YOU can tell anyone how homosexuality lines up with anti social behavior.
And persons who can’t SPONTANEOUSLY procreate when they have sex, hardly qualifies as anti social. That’s a factor true for heterosexuals as well as homosexual people.
It doesn’t betray another person, it doesn’t assault another, or take anything away from another person.
But it would be wrong, to set up a child to know no other way to live or survive, but to be a thief, then when they steal just to eat, point a finger and punish him for becoming what you forced him to be.
In a way, people like you set up gay young people to be lonesome, isolated, without structure or inclusion in things to hope for like marriage and a peaceful school career or support from the faith community he grew up in. You force pariah status on him, and when he act out in destructive ways, becoming an addict, or overcompensating for lack of a satisfying and responsible committed sex life with another of his same orientation, you point fingers at what a negative life he’ll inevitably have.
That is the disgraceful way that the ex gay industry has traditionally behaved.
It’s only fair and right, that since gay people are victimized by religious doctrine, simply for what they are, and not what they DO TO OTHER PEOPLE, then it’s only right that they are allowed the full opportunity to be known and treated the way you’d expected to be. And it’s not a theory what would happen if they were. The proof is everywhere. Especially that despite the historical and traditional abuses heaped on them, gay people rise to accomplish a great deal that is good, or at least very normal. That alone is why the chronic push to keep them segregated and unable to prove YOU wrong, is unfair.
So please don’t act like coexistence, even alliance with each other between gay and hetero under the same social structures healthy for everyone, won’t work on gay people. In that, you would be obviously very wrong.
Regan,
I agree that there are many honest sweet productive(the list can go on) gay people. I know some and like them very much while there are some terrible straight people that I would rather not have to cross paths with, but I do!! We are speaking of morality and immorality and the harm it has on society. Studies show that children who are raised by two loving married parents of opposite sex are less likely to be depressed and are overall better adjusted and happy. This was the original plan and I really believe that homosexuality is a direct assault against this plan of family. There is no way two mothers could teach a boy how to be man and no way two men could teach a girl to be a woman. Whether you like it or not, men and women are born with different roles and strengths that go in accordance with those roles. Woman were born to have children, hence the womb, therefore they have natural instincts to nurture and feel differently than a man. Men don’t bear children, but rather stand as protectors to their families. Why do think men have such barbaric tendencies?? Why do think men are physically stronger than women? Think about it. Sorry dear Regan, but their is nothing natural or right about the act of homosexuality. I would say the same thing of fornication, that has brought about the birth of unwanted children who grow in single parent homes, missing out on their right to have a family. Sin is the problem in this world. These things that I have named are sins that crush the morality of this world which is a danger and destructive. It’s criminal what the world is teaching is okay and when you tell little Johnny that it is natural for him to have feelings for another little boy you are robbing him of his true identity and leading him down a path of destruction that will send his soul to eternal doom. Yah, I said it!! Could it be little Tommy is having problems and is depressed because of the confusion he is feeling, because something inside is telling him he is betraying nature? Having said all that, I still believe it is wrong to mistreat people and I choose to treat every human with respect no matter their sexual orientation, political stances, or religious beliefs. I love people and can still love them even if I disagree with them. Tolerance goes both ways, right?? Just in case you did not know it, Jesus loves all and came to save us all. Before the world was formed, God had us in mind and had a plan to redeem us from sin. All we have to do is believe and trust Him. The thing is Regan God knows your name and loves you!! You may reject Him, but He still died for you. God’s love is truly amazing and I wish the world would see Him the way He truly is, not the way they’ve imagined or were told by some bitter soul. He is in fact merciful and full of grace and He gets us, having come to the world as a man to know what it is like to be tempted yet never sinning. Through His suffering, death, burial, and resurrection He has given those who believe the power to overcome and one day spend eternity with Him. All we have to do is cry out to Him. He loves you:)
Regan, your answers are in the premises revealed in your own comment. Matt being “post-gay” as well as being regenerated in heart by the Holy Spirit and yet still/again having to struggle with pornography would indicate that sexual orientation and pornography are related, but different issues. Note the many hetero commenters who acknowledge the same struggle with porn. I watched porn until Jesus saved me and mercifully took porn away from me overnight, both use and desire for it. He showed me that I craved emotional intimacy and approval, much as Matt mentions, and tried to substitute porn for it as being less open to being hurt by other people in an actual relationship/friendship.
“The thing about pathologies, paraphilias and sexual orientation, is that gay people are the only one who are forced to CONFLATE all those issues and blame being gay, for the paraphilias and pathologies.
Het people don’t have to do that.” What Christians, het or otherwise in their attractions, do is to blame not their sexual orientation, but their human self-will, what the Bible calls the flesh (not the physical body per se) as being opposed to God the Spirit and to the Holy Spirit who lives in believers at salvation and regenerates their heart (“I will take out your (dead) heart of stone and give you a (living) heart of flesh” Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26 (not the same concept as “flesh” in Paul’s letters)) The passage from Romans that Matt quoted describes that struggle that all Christians face daily, and lose if they try to win in their own strength.
“And what about gay people who don’t have pathologies or fall into the traps most of you did?” Just another illustration that each of us is tempted to different sins by our old flesh nature, even after Christian salvation. Alcohol or substance abuse doesn’t tempt me, but seeking approval still does, and it could lead me right back into porn if I were to seek approval and love from other people before receiving it from Jesus first. And another self-refutation of your premise that gays have to conflate their other temptations with their SSA. Hets who are Christian don’t have to repress their orientation because the Bible acknowledges it as being God-given. Gays should not try to repress their SSA (more trying to win the struggle alone without God’s grace) but daily turn all their desires and thoughts over to Jesus like all of us Christians have to do (“…taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” 2 Cor 10:5).
Whatever our struggles or temptations, Matt’s point (and the point of the Christian Gospel) that you are not yet seeing through your lens is that only Christ in us by the Holy Spirit can win the battle our regenerated heart wages against the unregenerated (until after death in the resurrection) flesh’s battle waged against God and His Holy Spirit within us. There is no other hope. Fortunately, our one hope who is Jesus Christ is all-powerful, all-sufficient and all-forgiving in repentance.
I understand, more than you know. I understand about God and Jesus as a repository for those urges and temptations because it’s God and Jesus that you are taught, know what to do with them to help you.
However, these are still intangibles.
And us folks, are not.
So if I go by what I SEE, then don’t tell me I’m blind to what I see, while trying to tell me to believe and take on faith, what I do not.
All well and good to confess, and open your soul up and seek support and forgiveness. It’s only human to want connection, intimacy, closeness and community. We are social creatures, that’s why shunning and isolation are such powerful and destructive forces to an individual. And incentive to obey.
I see a very distinct contradiction. You might, with your comment say this is how Christians respond to ssa (as if the comment thread is innocuous), but the political power and social prejudice outside of those opinions, tell a whole other story.
I have no doubts of the commitment your fellow believers have for your religious belief.
I do however, have doubts that qualifies you as a consistently just human being.
You may be the most honest Christian I’ve ever come across. I praise God for your obedience in sharing your struggles. I really believe it will minister to many. What a great teaching on the scriptures you shared. I will be printing them out and studying them; getting them more deeply into my spirit. You are a blessing. Good had truly made something beautiful our of ashes in your life. You are in my prayers.
Have you considered the fact that the porn stars are victims of your fantasies? By watching them with a lustful spirit … you are enabling more children to be introduced to this type of enticement!
Get out of your self as Christ Jesus did to bring healing to others.
Then and only then will you be victorious.
Would it be acceptable if you look at porn while fantasizing about being married to the lady baring her intimate parts? Marital sex is kosher according to God’s law, so desiring marital sex is quite different from desiring adultery.
Thank you. Our faith is a journey and only by showing others where the traps and stumbling blocks are that we have trouble with can we hope to help them keep their feet on the path we all walk…toward wholeness and freedom in and through Christ alone. Blessings.
I have little interest in porn. YAWN! Why watch someone else do it? It brings no emotional or even physical satisfaction. Actually, my interest in it declined as my acceptance of being gay increased.
I do know that excessive porn encourages an objectification of others. You see them not as someone to relate to but someone to utilize. You forget to even ask if you’re even fond of or intellectually stimulated by the person. You’ve removed the element of relationship entirely.. It’s just not fully human or satisfying on any level but the most animalistic.
“I do know that excessive porn encourages an objectification of others. You see them not as someone to relate to but someone to utilize. You forget to even ask if you’re even fond of or intellectually stimulated by the person. You’ve removed the element of relationship entirely.. It’s just not fully human or satisfying on any level but the most animalistic.”
I agree with that 100% James. That is why porn ultimately becomes a destroyer of relationships.
The following is something I read recently from a daily devotional book entitled “My Utmost for His Highest” by Oswald Chambers…
AM I CARNALLY MINDED?
“Whereas there is among you envying, and strife…are ye not carnal?”
No natural man knows anything about carnality. The flesh lusting against the Spirit that came in at regeneration, and the Spirit lusting against the flesh, produces carnality. “Walk in the Spirit,” says Paul, “and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh”; and carnality will disappear.
Are you contentious, easily troubled by trifles? “Oh but no one who is a Christian ever is!” Paul says they are, he connects these things with carnality. Is there a truth in the Bible that instantly awakens petulance in you? That is a proof that you are yet carnal. If sanctification is being worked out, there is no trace of that spirit left.
If the Spirit of God detects anything in you that is wrong, He does not ask you to put it right; He asks you to accept the light, and He will put it right. A child of the light confesses instantly and stands bared before God; a child of the darkness says-”Oh I can explain that away.” When once the light breaks and the conviction of wrong comes, be a child of the light, and confess, and God will deal with what is wrong; if you vindicate yourself, you prove yourself to be a child of the darkness.
What is the proof that carnality has gone? Never deceive yourself; when carnality is gone it is the most real thing imaginable. God will see that you have any number of opportunities to prove to yourself the marvel of His grace. The practical test is the only proof. “Why,” you say, “if this had happened before, there would have been the spirit of resentment!” You will never cease to be the most amazed person on earth at what God has done for you on the inside.
I will keep you in my prayers Matt.
Sorry…the scripture at the top is 1 Corinthians 3:3
Matt, thank you so much for posting this. I struggle with lust and every time I fall, I feel miserable and am left questioning if I sincerely love Christ. Thank you for being brave and sharing your addiction. I am sure God sees your heart and knows you love Him. God bless
Brother Matt. I praise God for your transparency and forthrightness. Your article is a blessing to many, including myself!
Praying for 4 dear Matt, amazing article. You are a blessed man, take care!!
Thanks for this gutsy post Matt. I like your idea of praising God to avoid temptation. I have been challenging myself lately to “desire God more than I desire lustful thoughts”. As men I think we enjoy challenges, right? So I thought this was a way to turn the temptation into zeal through a sort of challenge or game. Of course it is all by God’s grace, but sometimes I feel God wants me to show my willingness to work with him too.
Anyway I have found it helpful so I share it here for what it’s worth, from one work in progress to another. God bless!
“Pour forth, we beseech Thee O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts. That we, to whom the incarnation of Christ Thy Son was made known by the message of an angel, may, by His passion and cross, be brought to the glory of His resurrection, through the same Christ Our Lord.”
@Regan Actually, it was the American Psychiatric Association who only 40 years ago polled its membership to vote on removing homosexuality from our Diagnostic & Statistical Manual (DSM). When the preliminary vote was being counted, and it was plain that the overwhelming majority vote was to keep it listed as a mental disorder, the politically correct leadership abruptly suspended the vote, which was interrupted by the LGBT “Trolls”, who had burst into the assembly and demanded their “rights”. The larger world community of psychiatrists are split about 50-50 on this, but it is true that APA carries a lot of credibility, even though few people under 30 know how this tragic abandonment of scientific principle actually transpired. The next DSM (5th edition) is even more politicized and virtually bereft of usefulness to practitioners, except insurance providers/deniers, and the CPT/ICD, which is simply a profit center for the Am Psych & Am Medical Associations, which further explains why so few of us physicians are members a ny more.
I know the history there, I know how that meeting was interrupted.
So?
There was little opportunity for gay people to have a civil and forthright opportunity for inclusion in forums in which it was THEIR lives under discussion.
In a lot of way, it’s still like that.
Forty years is a long time. I can point to the Dr. Benjamin Clark study, as I can the Dr. Elizabeth Booker research, and how both forms of research into marginalized minorities, changed the structure of civil rights for both of them and in what way. What was unique about the Clark study, was the effect of bigotry on young minds. The corrosive effect of living in an environment where the constant messaging is that you’re inferior, threatening and have no worth to society. One thing the psychiatric and medical communities are obligated to do, is redo research, update their test samples, and methodology. Your comment here, still is running the subtext that gays wrongly and threateningly demanded more attention to how they were treated and their self determination. It was right to examine that community outside of institutionalization, to find if they were a demographic that is socially adjusted and self reliant. There were laws that allowed for involuntary institutionalization. And people who were the most powerless victims of that, were women and gay people. Another correlation to the inherent misogyny in how females and gay people are in the social hierarchy.
Just as women were right to march and change laws that determined their quality of life, it’s been true also of blacks and gay people.
The abuses heaped on gay people is similar to that of blacks, with similar archaic discrimination for no other reason than their neutral difference of sexual orientation. Just as skin color is neutral to one’s moral character or intelligence.
But those determined to maintain blacks in an inferior social position never think that. Or admit it.
Asexuality is an orientation too. Are there any ideals that require they have sex, on condition of being treated fairly in society, or that they are threatening when they don’t adhere to being sexual? This is another contradiction in terms gay people are confronted with.
The subtext here is that gay people deserve how they are treated, and they are wrong to protest it, and their anger and pain is illegitimate. The obligation here, is to see what acceptance and fairness will do for this demographic. That’s what it’s going to take for everyone to learn what they must.
I’d like to hear your definition of acceptance and fairness please.
@bigchas40:
To be included openly in institutions or structured social networks that optimize responsibility, education and experience. School, military, BSA, marriage and family. It’s not natural for there to be so much distrust and hostility of gay people, that casual contact invokes and incites unprovoked violence. That is a taught response. It’s irrational and gets nothing positive back in return.
Considering the universality of homosexuality in all human life and history, to argue that it’s not biological in basis, and has acquired components like religion, doesn’t make sense for the aforementioned reasons.
Homosexuality doesn’t render a person anti social, so there is no reason to not accept it. The benefits outweigh any negatives. There is always benefits in being just to other people. Indeed, when has equal treatment and fairness ever been a bad thing?
So you are saying that it is right to do what organized psychiatry did and tacitly agree that the gay actvists’ civil rights outweighed the majority opinion? Psychiatry has traditionally embraced diversity and self-actualization, in whatever form people choose to pursue it, that’s precisely what we did, in fact. My point is simply to highlight the fact that the majority of the planet is heterosexually oriented, and we are now over accepting and tolerant while gay activists are increasingly intolerant. And young, immature persons are being fooled into embracing a morally wrong and sinful lifestyle according to God’s Word, in the name of being politically correct (and d__n the consequences). Perhaps it is defensible to suppress the host of medical negatives associated with promiscuity?
@GRyder: yes, that’s EXACTLY what I’m saying and exactly what should be done. When it comes to social integration of our fellow human beings, opportunity to prove oneself is only fair and right. Religious beliefs, traditionally have demonized and incited fear and rejection of things that have been shown to actually be necessary, healthy and acceptable. Such as contraception for example. Such as autopsy. There are aspects of clinical disorders that obviously have no bearing on gender or sexual orientation. Those disorders that are defined by anti social or dis associative and cognitive ability, are gender and orientation neutral. You veer off into rejection of homosexuality by religious definition, rather than a clinical one. You load up the word activist, to qualify gay people who challenge the restriction of their self determination. Very telling.
“Over tolerance”?
And using the word “lifestyle” to describe homosexuality puts you right up there with someone who failed to catch the train on the progress made in what others have learned, that you don’t want to learn.
Gay people shouldn’t have to pay the price for your personal decision to stay behind. It wouldn’t be right for you to benefit from 21st century human progress, while you try to drag gay people back to the 19th century standards under which you think they deserve to be treated.
That’s in direct conflict of a gay person being treated the way you’d want to be.
I’ll ask again, where has any individual, country or society suffered from giving an otherwise excluded group, equal opportunity and fairness?
Well?
Oh, and so what if the majority of the human population is heterosexual? So what? They are also majority right handed, dark skinned and brown eyed, and of average intelligence. Means you’re common as dust, not special. Get that? Might doesn’t make you right. Even though women are slightly more of the human population, they aren’t running more than half of the world’s business, religious communities or politically powerful offices. When it comes to the bigger issues regarding sexual ‘sins’ and their definition, I already stated that the issue of porn has the traditional victims of it, females and children and gay people. They are the more vulnerable of the world’s population. And certainly the most misunderstood, precisely because of the inherent misogyny and power hungry aspects of religious hierarchy. Directly or indirectly forcing another person into a sexual situation against their will, because of their economic, socio/political or gender position is as old as human life itself. Apparently those who think they know best how people should live, fail very miserably at protecting the vulnerable, but run headlong still into the same old power play against those lives.
Case in point, how often street preachers show up where a gay Pride parade or other event will occur. Shouting and making noise through megaphones and carrying signs.
But I ride patrol with police officers, where sex trafficking and drug dealing, and gang activity is going on openly every day, any time of day and these same preachers are no where in sight.
The priorities of interfering with gay people has taken monumental precedence over participating in prevention or protection of those vulnerable to gangs, drugs and sex work.
As well as those whose mental state has made them homeless and incapacitated.
And you complain about ‘over tolerance’ of gay people?
Again, you support some useless priorities.
Seriously.
Matt its really awesome that you have a relationship with God like this. Clearly you have discerned the deeper things of the Lord and now have the tools to battle sin on a day to day basis!
Matt,
It does not surprise me that God spoke those words to you. Currently, I am the praise and worship leader at my church, but I learned to praise during my teenage years. After years of being depressed and fearful due to some childhood abuse, God taught me in my alone times and even in youth group to praise like my life depended on it. The word tells us that we can “put on the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness”. So, in the the hardest times when I struggled I would just praise usually in the form of dancing and the Holy Spirit would come upon me and I would just go!! I tell you praise is warfare against the enemy. I don’t completely get it, but I know God ordained it. Remember, Paul and Silus in prison and how they just began to sing praises to God in their physical bondage. God showed up. The earth quaked and their chains fell off. I think about David and how he danced before the Lord when the ark(the presence of God) was in his house. He became undignified. I think praise in any form humiliates the flesh because it is not always comfortable and does not come naturally for your natural self. Magnify the Lord in times of temptation. I know that you said you deal with depression sometimes….magnify the Lord in those seasons. Loosen those chains with your praise. When we praise we speak of the works of God and His victory and when we do this we remind ourselves of who our God is building our faith and filling our lives with truth which will overcome the lies of the enemy!! Put on your favorite praise cds, read the psalms, lift up your voice and let praise rise!! You, my brother, are more than a conqueror because you believe in Him who overcame this world. Yes, you do have the victory over sin, the word says that, “sin no longer has dominion over you”!! Praise God, that, “with every temptation, He provides a way of escape”!!! God bless you. I am praying for you, brother…..
Erica
Hi Matt,
just a word
check out my recent blog post and this will bring much understanding and light on your struggles
http://www.overcomingandunderstandinghomosexuality.com/blog.html
Love you
Love Kathleen Malligan
Great post Matt! That section of Romans has unleashed some of the most violent storms and greatest victories in my life. And then I forget again. Drat. But always there is someone to remind me of the truths contained there – so thanks!
My aunt always tells me: when we start to praise, the devil jumps out the window. I try to keep that picture in my mind when temptation strikes! (I sometimes sing tunelessly, making up my own words as I go along – I think the horror of that gives the devil that final push.)
Be blessed!
So what, exactly, is your purpose for even being here if you feel this way Katty wompus?
This is a new site for me, but I didn’t want to miss an opportunity to try and learn something. I’ve been trying for years. I’m patient, and I try to be fair, and mostly I am. So that’s why I’m here. A long time ago, when Joseph Nicolosi was promoted his new book “How To Prevent Homosexuality In Your Child”, JN was on the Sean Hannity Show. I asked JN three specific question that he decided to ignore. Even when Hannity tried to redirect him to answer, he answered by acting as if the question was beneath him to bother.
According to Nicolosi’s own template that he asserts, boys become gay through a lack of strong father figures in their homes and dominant mothers and are looking inappropriately for affection with men because of that abandonment of relationship.
So I asked Nicolosi: since a large majority of single parents are black women, why isn’t there a much, much higher prevalence of homosexuality among black men?
There is more unfortunate higher percentages of poverty, incarceration and drug use (which is also adjacent to having less opportunity to avoid them), but not homosexuality.
It was a fair question, Hannity was curious too. Hannity got nowhere either, then had to go to a commercial break.
I’m just conveying one of the many experiences I’ve had over the years. So Katy was giving ME a tip and trying to save me wasting my time.
You mentioned that I just wanted to win here. Well, you’re off on that too and you tend to project what you’re actually doing.
So, I’m still waiting to hear why some Christians are indifferent when they cause harm, and why gay people are made the exceptions when it comes to using their sexual orientation as the reason for their shortcomings, when heteros don’t and aren’t required to do that.
Let alone on condition of being treated equally to other people with the same shortcomings.
I’ve been raised in the Christian way, and went to Bible school too. I attended temple since I was a child because my best friend is Jewish as are many people close to me.
But I’m a member of several groups abused by the divine rights claimed by members of YOUR group. So I would have thought you’d be considerate of that context and understand when I recognize it done to others.
I can admit when I’m wrong.
I was wrong to think you’d be considerate about that context. Even ASK me first about it.
But that’s just it, there isn’t much asking, coming from most here. Just telling.
Regan, your question is more multifaceted than I think even you realize. First of all you tend to dump all Christianity into the same pot assuming that we are all of one mind. This isn’t true at all. Christianity is a very narrow path that the majority of the world doesn’t travel down even though they will claim to be doing so. When you refer to those who are “members of YOUR group” you don’t realized that you are NOT correct in this assumption. Those who are “indifferent and cause harm” are not true Christians. Christ never was abusive and cruel to anyone and if I am to be a follower of His, then I will reflect this same attitude…which I do. You also have no way of knowing my sexual orientation because I’ve never told you or anyone besides Matt. However you still assume and conclude that I’m one of those in that “group”. You’re obviously, a very intelligent person yet you are calculating conclusions which aren’t correct and just these things, alone, point out to me that you don’t have the understanding of some basics. I don’t disagree with you about the abusiveness of those that claim to be Christian. I don’t associate with those people. They are false in their beliefs and invidious in their actions. True Christians will point out sin with love and concern not hate and nasty behavior realizing that every soul is precious to God and, therefore, should be precious to the true Christian, as well. God has given everyone the right and ability to accept His word or reject it. There is nothing for a true Christian to do beyond this. We let the person know of their sin and move on. If they react and change their life to be in harmony with God’s will, then we will rejoice. If not, then there is nothing else to do beyond all the advice and prayers. As far as all the psychological advice about what makes a boy become gay, I am not convinced of it. What I do believe is in what the word of God says, which is very clear as to what sin is and how we should be living to avoid it. I realize this is sounding all very simplistic, which it is for the sake of basic clarity. Much more is involved in the process of helping someone fully absorbed by a particular sin or sins. However there is NEVER a reason to be willful in causing pain to anyone in the name of God. Perhaps I was wrong to accuse you of trying to “win”, I suppose we all want to make our points in a way that will convince others we are correct. So, I’ll pass along an apology to you for that comment.
Thanks for taking the time, Gene. And you’re right, I don’t know your sexual orientation. However, you’re a white man. You’re a Christian. These are men who have benefited the most from our nation’s protections and rights. It’s also included using Biblical or religious ‘proof’ to do so, and to abuse others. And you’re now saying ‘those aren’t true Christians’.
Well, the only distinction to make Gene, is in the results of what ANY proclaimed Christians do.
And if those results are young people being mentally and emotionally tortured for an aspect of themselves they did not choose, and unfairly are charged with repressing, then the Christians that require it, are not good Christians.
Because the results of such expectations, abuse and intractable beliefs are physical assault on gay kids or those thought to be, with the risk of suicide and addiction or overcompensation by way of porn and promiscuity.
What confounds and confuses everyone is the insistence that sexual orientation can be changed and that ONLY gay people should be the ones to change THEIRS.
And that this is a factor of their lives that makes them better more productive people.
As well as committing to the Christian way, or with certain more strict religious disciplines NO ONE ELSE has to commit to to be fully realized in greater society.
I see religious sins ignored, even rejected outright because they restrict human progress, social interaction and even physical comfort and healing.
And moral sins, are those which never change. I reiterated those.
This is also confusing because Christians, when it comes to civil discourse REFUSE to make those distinctions and all over again, confound and confuse those issues at the detriment of gay lives.
So, any Christians making the claims of who is not a good Christian and who is, really aren’t making their case at ALL.
Because most Christians and their reactions and treatment of gay people, is inevitably hypocritical and contradicts some very simple terms in how a person is treated in modern society.
The second you reject a gay person’s participation in those things that are structured and support disciplined lives and personal sacrifice for others (especially the Constitution and Bill of Rights), it’s a rejection of treating another as you’d be treated, and then all bets are off with those Good Christian claims.
Being a Christian is the lifestyle of choice.
Being gay, and respecting the tenets of the Constitution and civil laws we all adhere to, is not.
I cannot respect anyone who has benefited without challenge from all that modern life has to offer, and still maintains a rationale for rejection for others to have that benefit as well.
So, in essence, what you’re saying is that you’d slow down for a car accident or train wreck to look and as you look at the supposed injured, you’d injure them further? This seems to be your intent as you seem all about injury instead of help and support to those who believe in this ”imaginary friend”.
WTF?!
Hey Gene, I’m not Katty and she’s free to speak her mind. But don’t EVEN try and pull that bait and switch as if I’m the one who said what she did.
I told you I was here to learn. That I was patient, and wanted to engage aspects of this conversation that have more to do with real historical contexts when it came to civil law, to the treatment of people because of their gender as female or gender variant.
So you pull this crap because of what Katty said? Well, what DOES that say about you and not her?
So about your question, regarding Christian values and the founding of this country’s social structure from Christian principles.
First of all, your very comment is wrong about the entire of the impetus of this country’s founding. It was implicit to not make an official government sanctioned religion. That there was to be a separation of civil governance and religious tests for it’s leaders. SECULAR law and principles workable to all people was and has been the guiding force that most citizens can and do understand. Of many one, so to speak.
It’s possible, altogether workable, that people who are different can and SHOULD live under the same guidelines and REASONABLE expectations of social responsibility and contribution.
However, the most virulently anti gay, using their religious beliefs, completely contradict all that. Are hypocritical and utterly throw the most basic legal freedoms known to most everyone, to the grinder when it comes to gay people ONLY.
There is a specific and very confusing selectivity about which religious standards to live by, which ones to reject and which ones only gay citizens deserve to have enforced against them.
This is NOT a Christian nation. It’s a polytheistic one. We are a nation of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, atheists, agnostics and non believers.
So what if we ARE?
All of Creation is full of diversity and variance. It keeps things lively and interesting.
Where forcing conformity into one big block hasn’t been, and whole nations have fallen because of it. That’s what made Rome implode, the march of Christians all over the world to the point they couldn’t carry their own standard for long.
So don’t act as if all of America becoming a “Christian nation” became that way through hearts and flowers or would get that way without more blood being spilled.
And we ARE a better nation for the diversity and differences. The constant in all this, is gay people. Gay people aren’t trying to make OTHERS gay, nor claim any benefits beyond anyone else’s. Christians can’t say that.
It’s impossible to change anyone’s sexual orientation, but people of faith want their religious belief to enforce a gay person’s freedom and right to associate with and love someone who shares their orientation.
Hets are allowed to do that with someone who shares THEIR orientation. And take as many tries to find the right person to do so.
Some of the nation’s founders, for all their talk of freedom, were slave owners.
For all the talk of the natural and complimentary halves of humanity men and women make, poverty, disease, illiteracy and domestic violence are firmly feminized pathologies here, all over the globe and traditionally through history.
Anyone paying attention and who is a GOOD person, would see that gay people ARE and rightfully, trying to live in peace and participate in structures not open to them. Structure they are quite capable of thriving in, and bettering society in the process. You don’t judge a group incapable of that, while at the same time doing everything you can to keep them from proving it.
I’ll ask again.
Since when has equal treatment been a bad thing for individuals and nations?
Since when has the hope for love, commitment and social structure been a bad thing for gay people or anyone either?
calm down Regan, I hit the button in reply to katty, but it inserted after one of your comments… sometimes we make our own insinuations out of nothing!
So be careful then, Gene. Forums like these can escalate some serious misunderstandings.
Typically, when I mention my profession in forensic science and having to experience the worst in human depravity, I expect a certain amount of questions.
Especially in forums on how that intersects with discussions on gay people, and their impact on society. If there are people who are going to insist that gay people and their inclusion in marriage and child rearing, in the BSA or the military, in anything representative of structure and commitment will destroy it: then it’s fair to question how that can be true, when gay people ALREADY have shown remarkable commitment. It’s just a matter of doing it openly, so that they can be assessed FAIRLY.
I work for a big agency in a big city. There is a density of gay people from everywhere. Their experience is varied, but those who were accepted by their family, who were given equal opportunity with their siblings and peers, didn’t suffer the most pathology in their lives.
The ex gay industry NEVER makes the proper comparisons or engages historical context, other than what the Bible says, or what influence Christian principles have had where they think and report there has been their wanted result.
There especially doesn’t seem to be an interest in how destructive systemic bigotry is.
But it would be more than fair to compare that, to other minorities and their adjustment under SIMILAR situations.
I’ve already done it.
That’s why I brought up the Clark doll study and the Brown vs. Brd of Ed decision.
you misunderstood, and you want ME to “be careful”? You gave me a laugh, thanks!
On second thought, and reading my comments, I probably did misunderstand you. Was your devil’s advocate question rhetorical? Because I tried to take you seriously. Gene, I’d love to be able to respect Christians. But it’s very hard to do that when, regardless of misunderstanding you, you respond with mockery, derision, defensiveness and complaint. I’m willing to edit and shorten my comments and try to make them more reader friendly. Now, you have an obligation here too. Tell me again, what distinguishes a good Christian, from a bad one? Especially with regard to treating another as you’d be treated. I’m listening. Are you?
Good luck Regan! True believers will make stuff up to try and get others to believe in their delusion. Like this “US was founded as a christian nation” nonsense. I agree with what you say and admire your efforts, but true believers will never let facts get in their way.
Maybe not a train wreck, maybe this is more like watching waves crash into rocks.
That is not what I am saying, You are making stuff up……again.
It’s like slowing down for a car accident or watching a train wreck. All this delusional talk about your imaginary friend and how he cares about you and what you do with your genitals.
From Gene Jenkins: “We let the person know of their sin and move on. ”
Delusional. You move on to continuing to ” let the person know of their sin” by berating them until they change, and threatening them with eternal damnation in they don’t.
you have no idea what I’d do, you know nothing about me other than what I’ve told you and it is already obvious that you aren’t listening to that.
Ms Wompus, I’m assuming from your previous comment “All this delusional talk about your imaginary friend” that it is Jesus to whom you are referring to as the imaginary friend, is that correct? Are you seriously trying to contend that Jesus Christ is not an actual historical figure, or are you suggesting that Jesus was just a man, and that Christians are delusional for believing in His deity? I would really appreciate it if you would clarify your point.
I answered your question. And you didn’t answer mine: when has any person or society ever suffered from equal rights and justice? If one of many minorities that has been defamed, denied the same opportunities and been subjected to prejudice over a singular neutral attribute, then they deserve to be known and heard and let equal opportunity speak for itself.
Making all the religious based claims, and expecting deference for it has been done before and to much detriment and unnecessarily destroyed lives.
Religious beliefs places gay people in the position of being constantly suspect, and forced to prove innocence or ability. Well, if they don’t get any chance to prove, then that religious belief can maintain it’s assertions.
History has proven how immoral and unjust that is.
So, why should the choice of being Christian, demand deference over people whose orientation has nothing to do with being religious?
But what religious people keep interfering with anyway?
Oh, and focusing on Katty, and ignoring the conversation I’m trying to have with the thread here, is evidence of the selective way some Christians want to play the victim.
There will be times all the sermons and claims of faith in God won’t help you avoid being seen for exactly what you REALLY are.
@ Regan DuCasse
Perhaps you’d give this a listen? You can download it for free. I found it (both parts) to be really interesting and informative – and I believe this guy did address quite a lot of the issues you raise. I honestly believe that anyone – whether they believe in Jesus Christ or not – will learn something by listening to it. And the guy has a sense of humour – what’s not to like?
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/free-resources-pastors/161956-free-audio-seminar-download-the-reason-for-god-by-timothy-keller.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=clpastors_newsletter&utm_content=7%2F19%2F2012+9%3A11%3A07+AM
Hope you like it and be blessed!
Would love to.
But check out what happened here. I’m sure I’ve had as much or more religious teaching and experience than Matt or those posting. I haven’t had an addiction, a sexual life or any form of life that I had to turn from, or that I’ve rejected out of hand (like believing in God).
No one asked me, no one assumed I believed in God, but assumed I didn’t because as I don’t wear piety like a resume or use God like a character witness.
I asked Gene a question about his certainty (among other moral questions), and he’s ignored me. I appreciate you finally being a little more civil Sarel.
It’s not God, or Jesus I have a problem with. There were sermons, and confessionals here. And some here admitted to refraining from certain things as if it was some major and admirable sacrifice.
Maybe in their minds and for the order of their lives, it was.
Okay this is a site started by a Christian, and would attract other Christians.
Sorry sarel, it sure doesn’t take much for you all to be impressed by each other. This isn’t the only site in which I’ve noticed that.
And I don’t care to participate in the flattery. I have more important things to do. And I think it’s fair to say, that God and Jesus don’t mind.
Which is why I don’t understand or give a shit if there are some Christians, mere mortals, that do mind.
Fair?
No; I am not trying to contend that Jesus Christ is not an actual historical figure. That would be silly.
Yes I am suggesting that Jesus was just a man, and that Christians are delusional for believing in His deity.
God knocked up a virgin. Only once. Sure. And Noah took a pair of all the critters on his ark. Polar Bears, Pachyderms, and Pterodactyls. All the bugs too. A few thousand years ago. OK.
Delusional
@Erica,
In your comments Erica, there is a lot of belief in some very simplistic and unrealistic things that have no basis in the real complexity, nor modern life and understanding about gender. You have benefited greatly from modern life and changes in our nation and culture with regard to sexual orientation and gender.
Yet your comment reflects IDEALS that do not respect INDIVIDUAL talents, nor character that supports the very natural FLUIDITY of gender. Your assertion about the man/woman model of parenting, didn’t compare those parents to gay parents.
In fact, very little of the research being floated actually has. You put NO historical context to the treatment of women, especially those who could not adhere to RELIGIOUS standards of femininity or independent thought.
Spare me the lecture about sexual organs and physical distinctions between male and female.
I’m talking about the abuses, bigotry and unequal socio/political hierarchies BASED on those PHYSICAL differences only, and nothing to do with the skills and psychologically neutral differences and variations on gender. And knowing what does pose a harm to societal order and progress.
When religious communities refuse to distinguish differences that are harmful and anti social, with differences that are gender variances and little else, then it’s YOU behaving in a way that requires rethinking. You ARE benefiting from modern understanding and changes regarding being a woman, otherwise your life would more resemble what life is like for girls in Taliban controlled Afghanistan.
You can say with one face how you think or know there are some good gay people out there, but with another face you say they still aren’t fit to walk the Earth and can’t be here to share in the modern life of interactive COEXISTENCE and cooperation, then that’s what you are.
Two faced, speaking with two tongues, living in two ways.
You being a woman born at the right time, doesn’t make YOU a better or worthy person, just a luckier one.
I’m sure you think you’re sincere and you know what’s best for gay people and that gay people should appreciate that you do know what’s best for them.
Women and blacks over very recent decades have been treated like and expected to live like children. And especially not challenge what the majority or dominant culture thought was their authority over their lives.
That you won’t engage that very critical part of this discussion, doesn’t impress me about you.
That’s what I mean. Piety and claims of your Christian adherence is a poor substitute for depth of soul and commitment to understanding what our lives are to be like now. Which in no way, resembles the cultural mores and cues of those of Biblical times and shouldn’t.
Gay people have come through the centuries with everyone else, and shouldn’t still be arguing with anyone over whether their orientation has merit.
I’m a left handed person. There was a time when that aspect was punished and forcibly changed and thought to indicate reprobate behavior. Even if a person didn’t behave like a reprobate.
Considering the blood Christians historically have on their hands in comparison, still expecting DEFERENCE to strict Christian standards of law on gender and orientation wouldn’t be rational no matter how you look at it.
Regan,
You are right!! I love the freedom that I experience being black, female, and a christian in modern society. However, I disagree with your views of my character and my heart when you do not know me. It is amazing what the love of Christ in your heart will give you the ability to do, including loving your enemies(or those who do not agree), or walking in forgiveness. Look through the gospels and really see Jesus and the way he was with women and how He values all people. God made man in his image and likeness and loves ALL!! You see, love is not a feeling, but rather an act of the will and therefore, yes, I can love someone, but not agree. I choose to love and respect those I do not agree with and guess what? It works and I do!! The bible tells us to judge no man according to the flesh which means that I have the ability to see beyond what can be seen and understand that my battle is not against flesh and blood, but the spiritual forces in the heavenlies causing havoc on this earth and whispering lies in the ears of mankind resulting in a hardening of hearts and a blindness that keeps “intelligent” beings in the darkness, and until illumination has occurred man will never understand the heart and truth of God’s word.
Now, I want to address your claims or accusations, Regan. Tell me, when was a gay person put in chains, told they can’t learn to read, unable to work for a living, and told they can’t do what they want in the privacy of their home. Do not compare the gays so-called plight with what my ancestors went through. They cannot even begin to imagine being sold on the auction block and raped by white men who degraded them and beat them into submission. Sorry, you are wrong!!! They have no idea. No, they have the modern media, political organizations, and people like you fighting their battles. My people suffered for hundreds of years much violence, but many still trusted God for their freedom. This was not God’s doing, but man’s ignorance once again showing it’s ugly head. You are trying to parallel sexual orientation with skin color. Not the same thing.
Another thing, I realize that your arrogance wants me to prove something to you or maybe get me to try to reach your standard of conversation because you are decidedly above me and your mental capacity above mine ranks me lower than you, but I am not trying to impress you, neither do I need to, Reagan. Your attitude coupled with the so-called smarts or knowledge you have acquired convinces you that you are some sort of transcended or superior mind, but actually you have became more foolish because you cannot understand the simplicity of the truth. You depend solely on your intellect for truth and I search the spirit also. They two don’t mix and you and I will not really come to total agreement or understanding and I am okay with that. You think the way you believe is modern, but your ideologies are as old as time going back to ancient Greece. So, it can be argued that your path of thinking is as primitive as my own as you claim mine to be!! Hedonism says, if it feels right then do it. This is the ideal that has captured modern society then they recruited psychology to prove them right, by turning what was once considered a deviant behavior from a fallacy to it’s just the way you born so lets force everyone to accept it. Now, lets pass laws to put a seal of approval then try to quiet anyone who would disagree. Why quiet us? Because we are threat to you. What are you do afraid of??
@Erica: THANK YOU! you’ve said much of what I’d have said to Regan had I been as eloquent and adept as you are in your reply. Regan seems to have elevated herself to a level even approaching that of God due to her rise above us all in her modern education and self proclaimed experiences. She appoints herself worthy of judging societies from the present to ancient worlds and thinks her answers will provide substantial change. She thinks she knows God, but refers to “mine” as one of the “Gods that I choose to believe”. I have told her over and over that I recognize only one God and it’s HIS word that I follow and HIS laws that I respect. Still she comes back to the same points (which you’ve mentioned in your response) and flails them over and over as to why her perceptions of the wrongs within those situations have led us to our current societal issues. She claims comparison with those who are homophiles to the plight of women and even defames the entire black race in comparison to sin of sodomy. The only support in her ranting comes from a person called “Katty Wompus” to whom she commented: “Thank you Katty, for your words of comfort and reason. How sad it is, that’s not something I found here.” If Katty is the voice of “reason” on here, the rest of the story is obvious… they are both on here to be argumentative and disruptive of the subject matter. I did try and reason with them both, but found it impossible. I won’t waste my time replying to either one of them again. I appreciate and respect what you had to say not only to them, but also your observances, as well. Spot-on!
You and Erica and most here, can only repeat what the Bible tells you to.
No independent thoughts? No questions on exactly WHY you believe those words written were directly from God, and mocking those as non believers who have taken a different path to belief.
Of COURSE you gave up so easily! No wonder you think being a Christian is so hard and it’s such an accomplishment to give up personal vices and self indulgent pursuits.
And you would think anyone else is weak for not being as courageous as you, for believing in God and Christ in a country like this one.
You weren’t listening when I told you that I was already very impressed with God.
I just don’t believe God needs the hard sell you have going here.
But you do it anyway, and now throw up your hands when it got tough going in another way you’re not used to.
Erica,
with one face you say you enjoy the benefits of modern life and not having to strictly adhere to ALL that is Biblically proscribed or having to live as women have for centuries with religious based restrictions.
And with another face, you are playing the “my people suffered more than gays, and when have gays ever suffered like that?” sweepstakes.
You have disgraceful and willful ignorance of the history of gay people.
That way you don’t have to empathize or treat them the way YOU want to be treated.
And if I thought you were SINCERELY willing to hear the history, I’d tell it to you. Not hard to prove.
I told you to SPARE me your simplistic and rhetorical lectures about men and women as I haven’t noticed.
What I do understand, and apparently you don’t, is that we’re all unique anyway and there will be healthy variances of gender, that religious cultures try to box and enforce in contradiction to that.
And it’s not in a good way.
Most of how ancient cultures ordered their societies was around identity, and being able to discern male from female and who the parents of a child was, don’t require the same restrictions anymore. And most society don’t employ them.
Being gay STILL has nothing to do with how a person treats another. Fornication, sex without commitment, isn’t healthy whether it’s a gay person committing it or not.
In fact, I DARE you to name anything that’s exclusive to gay people or het people that one or the other couldn’t equally benefit from, or be harmed by.
What you can’t name, is that any society is harmed by GENDER variation and expression.
And no, a religious opinion is only that. It wouldn’t be a scientifically and modern concept that’s accepted every day. Even by you.
And it’s pathetic, really pathetic, to flip this conversation as if ANYONE is silencing Christians and is ‘threatened’ by them in a way that sounds like Christians like you are doing something heroic, courageous and unpopular by being believers.
That’s not hard.
If God and Jesus is open to everyone, then why are you making it sound like it’s such a big deal?
How many times do you have to be told that I’ve HEARD about God and Jesus ALL MY LIFE!
Most likely longer than you have.
I haven’t turned away.
What is that wishful thinking to give you something to criticize?
It’s not about SILENCING anything, but expecting a Christian to have the grace to give someone else a turn to speak their own truth and give others an opportunity to know another point of existence for other people and respect it.
So instead of Christians taking all the oxygen and opportunity out of the equation for gay people to be able to keep faith communities from harming them.
You’re not the credible ones here.
Any more than a non Jewish anti Semite, should be trusted to tell the truth about Jews.
That’s only fair.
Misogynists don’t get to claim they know all there is to know about women, and how to treat them badly because ‘the Bible said so’.
So I shouldn’t have to be the one to remind you that if YOU are treated fairly, as a woman, a black woman because of the commitment to equality and treatment under the law, then you can’t deny it to anyone else because you don’t know them or want to.
Erica says: “The bible tells us to judge no man according to the flesh which means that I have the ability to see beyond what can be seen and understand that my battle is not against flesh and blood, but the spiritual forces in the heavenlies causing havoc on this earth and whispering lies in the ears of mankind resulting in a hardening of hearts and a blindness that keeps “intelligent” beings in the darkness, and until illumination has occurred man will never understand the heart and truth of God’s word.”
I am so impressed that you have this amazing ability to see beyond what can be seen.
Then you go off on this rant about how high and mighty Regan is and you just know she thinks this, that and the other thing.
And “you think you’re so smart, ” yada yada yada.
What are you still in 5th grade?
God called me last night.
He said you are a snotty, delusional idiot.
Gene, you call Erica’s rant “eloquent”??
A 5th grader writes better. Your rant may be even sillier.
What is it with you true believers that you can read everybody’s thoughts and feelings?
You really should put that skill to better use.
Gene says: “Regan seems to have elevated herself to a level even approaching that of God due to her rise above us all in her modern education and self proclaimed experiences. She appoints herself worthy of judging societies from the present to ancient worlds and thinks her answers will provide substantial change.”
Really Gene?? All that new-fangled learnin’ stuff is baaaad!
But Gene, you saved the best for last.
“I did try and reason with them both, but found it impossible”
Hahaha! You must not read your own posts. You are a delusional, snotty idiot like Erica. Maybe you two could fornicate or something.
Thanks for the train wreck!!
@ Gene, I am also done and have enjoyed the debates, but don’t feel the need to continue. People are getting a bit mean. Whatever happened to a good clean respectful debate?? God bless you brother!!
@Regan, thanks for the short debate!! Obviously, I enjoy a good clean argument in hopes to hear the voices of others and a look into how people believe, and to work the debate muscle. Communication is alot easier when you are surrounded by others that agree with you, but I think it’s good to be challenged and God knows I do enjoy the occasional challenge!! Let’s face it; you and I will not come to agree on every point. I hope everything that went back and forth from me was taken with respect because I meant it to. I really wish you all the best on your search and journey through life. God bless:) I’m out!!
Regan, let’s play devil’s advocate. Ok, so this country was founded upon Christian principles and Christians have all the benefits. Why should a Christian nation bow to the rights of anyone not professing Christian values?
See my comment above, Gene…in answer to your question. And that bait and switch bs you pulled with Katty ON me, is exactly why she has a point.
Just because she agrees with, or defends me, then you want to extend your beef to me.
Is that an example of how rationally fair you can be?
That’s how nasty mobs act. Indicative of your compliment to Davide and his snark. Indicative of you projecting Katty to me, indicative of you projecting the victim mentality when you aren’t agreed with or challenged with something serious and complex.
I did answer Erica with regard to porn, and what I know about it and why.
If that’s the subject at hand, you weren’t engaging it either. But scolded me when you didn’t think I stayed on point.
I take the issue of porn, VERY seriously. I’m more involved at the level of it’s roots, it’s victims and how addiction to it occurs. UT is one of the largest consumers of porn. It’s also one of the most religiously influenced states in America.
A religious with some fairly extreme pre planning of the lives of it’s members.
It’s not a coincidence that the most repressive religious edicts, would put people at risk for consuming the most porn. There has to be a rational medium here.
As I said, females and gays are THE most repressed sexually, yet, the most exploited in that regard.
I’d say the way to relieve some of this is to balance and respect the natural fluidity of gender and accept variances of orientation. Which all represent a balance of gender. Which are all destroyed by unnatural strict religious laws and expectations in response to gender.
Regan, this is why I can’t continue to have rational discussion with you. You take a point and run it through all kinds of misrepresentations that you pick and choose. From the very beginning I told you that I believe and respect the word of God and that is what I use as a basis for my life. Yet you keep pounding away with your civil and anti-Christian rhetoric. Most of your replies have been over the top with insulting innuendos and rants about everything from fluidity of gender to accusing me of bait and switch tactics. I can’t even begin to keep conversation with you within one topic before you begin another. You are being as rude as any of those you have called out for being anti-gay. So, if this is the way it will be going, I don’t want to continue. I’m not going to argue with you or anyone.
You asked a question about this being a Christian nation, didn’t you?
And I answered you. How is it anti Christian to tell you that this country was founded specifically not to have a gov’t sanctioned religion. And how is it anti Christian to mention the historical truth that some aspects of Christian influence in America hasn’t always been beneficent? How is that being AS rude as being anti gay?
I know you respect and believe in the word of God, but how do you know it’s the word of God?
If that was true about not keeping up, then I can try and keep it simple and just ask questions instead of commenting.
So, answer these few here. How about that?
No Scriptures, no rhetoric and repetition of talking points.
Just answer these few questions.
no, Regan, what I was beginning to ask was a “devils advocate” question with the supposition of : If this country was founded upon Christian principles and Christians have all the benefits. Why should a Christian nation bow to the rights of anyone not professing Christian values?
that’s what I was asking before you started in on me…do you know what “devil’s advocate” means?
So your question SUPPOSES if this was a nation founded on Christian principles, with Christians having all the benefits, why should a Christian nation bow to someone NOT professing Christian values?
I know what a devil’s advocate is. You’d have to mention what the devil is advocating in opposition for there to be context to your point. Because it’s not exactly supposition what people think this country is and the principles at it’s founding. So what is the opposition to the Christian nation the devil is advocating?
Well said Regen!
Good luck! They seem obsessed with other peoples’ sex lives
Wow, I went from reading a very inspiring blog by Matt to reading all the rubbish that followed. Matt, again, you are very inspiring to me. To a lot of the rest of you, grow up. Christians are NOT perfect. If you claim to be your lying therefore your not perfect. Homosexuality is ungodly because levitical law states that a man shall not lay with another man and a woman shall not lay with another woman. That’s it! No further explanation needed. The problem is we want Gods grace to cover our wrong doing without change. If you do as Matt is doing and develop a RELATIONSHIP with God you will understand. Unfortunately it isn’t something anyone can explain. You either choose to follow God and have Him open your eyes to his plan for your life, or you choose to ignore God and His desire to be part of your life and forever be in the dark. These statements go for everyone, Jesus said the greatest commandment is love because out of love everything else falls into place.
Matt, sorry for the distraction in the comments that have taken away from a very touching blog post.
Nathan
you’re absolutely right Nathan! I apologize for my part in that!
Hi Nathan, I love the idea of following God, and actually having a choice to do that.
I realize that my comments are probably too long and I’ll try and edit them. But these are complex issues that deserve more than rhetoric without context. It’s been my experience, and history shows that how one follows a path to God, and how his fellow man forces him to, directly or indirectly is dismissing a very important aspect of why we’re all here in the first place. Don’t you care if the Bible is used to abuse people in contradiction to modern life and what we know about each other or should?
@Regan:
Rhetoric without context? Really? I’ve tried my best to give you biblical text on nearly everything which I’ve tried to explain to you. (If you are referring my my posts and replies). I only strayed from this a bit toward my latter comments because you kept prodding me for conversation. So, here are some answers in context :
Why we are here:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing In the heavenly places in Christ: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him. In love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us In the Beloved” (Eph. 1:3-6).
Simply put, we are here to praise God, we exist for HIS good pleasure to do HIS will. Man had a choice to obey God or follow his own will and he was deceived by satan and lost the perfect world into which he was born. Still, God blessed man with material blessings and, more importantly, spiritual blessings through His own son, Jesus.
Regan in order to accept this truth, one must also respect the authority of these words as coming from the mouth of God in reference to his holy scripture and it being divinely written. The Bible, itself, makes no claims for the inspiration of any particular translation, copy, or reading. However, claims are made in regard to that which was originally written as the scriptures. It is understood that we do not have the original manuscripts, however, we are not left to doubt that what we have is indeed the same as the originals. “The amount of what can in any sense be called substantial variation, is but a fraction of the whole residuary variation, and can hardly form more than a thousandth part of the entire text” (Introduction to Greek New Testament, by Westcott and Hort). Paul wrote to Timothy, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness . . . .” (2 Tim. 3:16). This passage teaches that all scripture is God-breathed. If you aren’t convinced of this fundamental truth, then we need to be discussing scriptural authority before we can even begin to discuss individual issues.
“Don’t you care if the Bible is used to abuse people in contradiction to modern life and what we know about each other or should?”
If there are people who use God to invoke misery upon others, it’s not the fault of God. It is, yet, another ploy of satan who is trying to make God appear as the one who is being unreasonable and intolerant.
That’s the problem, Gene. You’ve given Biblical context to everything, and it’s inappropriate to do that. I told you I was raised Christian and attended not only Bible study, but Toranic study too. I’ve cracked the Q’ran, and other religious texts. My religious education is quite extensive actually. None of us were alive during Biblical times, but we are living in and eyewitness to a level of human progress and understanding those of Biblical times never dreamed of.
Why do you keep acting as if religious belief has ALWAYS been rightfully applied to socio/political structure, when it hasn’t? What makes you think it’s being done rightfully to gay people now, but you’d agree wrongly in other times? See how inconsistent that would be, when the results for all the wrongfully abused groups does work out the same?
@Regan:
No, what is inappropriate is you trying to set up the rules to the discussion.
Then YOU should be the one to set them up, so that only Scripture quotes and religious definitions are the discussion? In that way, the religious can have the advantage, and no historical context as to recent problems with religious inconsistency can be a part of it? I don’t want to make up any rules at all. I’m just looking for someone who CAN speak on critical aspects of mistakes religious communities make, and when they are going to own that, and stop making those mistakes.
Fair?
Even though the Constitution and Bill of Rights are short, written in English and openly available to anyone, there are still people interpreting it’s tenets and a group of nine people solely appointed to do and how we are to live together under it’s standards. If I don’t have as much faith in the Biblical standards of conduct precisely because of it’s interpretation having so many incarnations and abuses of others over the years, why would anyone be wrong to question it and who wrote it and why? Even with the benefit of online access to information and discussion, misinterpretation occurs greatly. As does misuse to do harm to others. So, given all that evidence, why shouldn’t those the most vulnerable to that abuse, challenge and question why? We’re all still here together, unlike being in the times the Bible was written. Look who has benefited the most from it, and you’re still going to tell me I should take it on faith that it’s been right?
@ Regan DuCasse
I write to you with a certain amount of terror! You write quite prolifically and I tend to answer in kind – and that is just a recipe for disaster in terms of my time management. Concerning you I have been exercising considerable restraint! But since you say that you are well versed with Biblical teachings, I’m just curious: imagine for a moment that God in fact does exist and that everything He revealed to us through His Word is true – what would you advise us Christians to do in this advanced day and age? Let us set aside ‘organised religion’ and focus on the individual Christian. Let us make such and individual sincere in his passion for Jesus Christ – fully focused on ordering his life around the teachings of the Bible.
Now I was an atheist for more than 20 years and therefore do have a certain amount of sympathy for your obvious distress. I’m also pretty well educated and also thought that belief in God belonged with the fear of the number 13 – and with those with less letters behind their name than me. That, of course, was until I had an encounter with God. I therefore always find it interesting coming across people who seem to think that it wouldn’t happen to them – because that is precisely what I thought until to my utter surprise it DID happen to me. I’m always left wondering whether the same is going to happen to them. And that makes me smile – because I know what consternation I faced directly after. I was not just stirred, I was most definitely shaken!
And may I say, meeting God was and continues to be the single greatest event in my life.
Kind regards,
Sarel
So another intangible, Satan, is taking the rap for bad things that people do, and it wasn’t a ‘real’ Christian or God doesn’t get the rap for when things go badly for other people who aren’t toeing the faith line the way their fellow citizens think they should be.
Gene, perhaps you don’t realize it. But putting off the failures of Christians on God OR Satan, is the weakest thing you can do.
I said that excuses like that, is what loses Christians and other faith groups their credibility.
That needs context too. More than just nothing but praise for each other for being Christian and thinking alike.
You seem to want to take all the credit and glory for having a lot of influence, without owning exactly how that happened. And when there are very bad results towards specific people you target, like gay people, then you throw off responsibility for it to something intangible.
So if this forum is only for those who claim religious epiphanies and confessional with none of the correct correlations and causation of pathology, then how is that inclusive or getting to the heart of what matters?
@Regan, Why wouldnt you have a choice in following God? Do you realize he already chose you. You are fearfully and wounderfully made. Everyone has the choice, it is what we do with that choice that is important.
I have a lot of points to make but dont want to waste a lot of time. so I will keep it short and sweet. at least I will try. The Bible is a guide, the Old testament is there to let us know where we came from, the New Testament is to let us know where we are going. Has the “Church” been off track in the past? YES are they off track today? YES. But not all of them. As a modern society we have tolerance shoved down our throats. But it isnt tolerance we need. we need the truth! If someone started stating we should tolerate child molesters because they are born that way there would mass rioting against it. Why? Because most of society views it as being wrong. Why is that? where do we get our moral compas? How do you know if you are a “good” person? I believe God has placed a portion of His will in all of us. Unfortunately we live in a world that God has given us free reign in. that means free will as well. That basically means bad thing happen to good people. Which also means self rightous religious church goers will cause a lot of people searching for the truth to be turned off by their attitudes. For instance the Westboro Babtist Church………there are going to be a lot of their members having rude awakinings when they end up in hell because of their sins.
That is the issue here. SIN! What is sin? well here is the million dollar question right. Bottom line, if God says dont do it then dont. I personally believe, because no one has shown me any different, that glutny is any worse than lying, stealing, cheating, murder, homosexuality, or coveting. God only places one sin higher than any other. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. self rightous people place levels on sin. That beng said, I do believe we should be doing our best to follow the Laws. Biblical laws, If you struggle with lying then study Gods word and have him send His Spirit to help you through it. If cheating is your vice…….same as above. Jesus says that He will send a helper for us to keep the faith.
Now there are concenquences to our actions. You reap what you sow, Biblical concept. If you take something that is not yours to take, you go to jail. If you repent and change your ways (which is the primary purpose of repentance) you will not have to stay in jail for long. We ALL sin, Jesus was the ONLY sin free person that EVER walked the earth, if we are not daily seeking repentance for ALL of our sins we are opening ourselves to judgement, Gods not mans.
I am not perfect, I sin daily, I deserve all I recieve in the way of punishment. Thankfully God sent a way out. His son, who paid the ultimate sacrifice to cover my sin debt. Wouldnt it be silly to not accept it and follow the one who paid my way? All he asks is for us to turn from sin and follow.
I dont know what has happened to you in the to cause you to distrust those professing christianity, I pray God heals that. I understand your distrust. I was molested by a youth pastor of a church I was going to when I was a teenager. I had a choice to make, forgive and move on or hold on to that hatred and allow God to do a work in my life. 18 years later He is still working.
Nathan, no sermon necessary. Been hearing this all my life, and so have millions of gay people.
What HASN’T been heard enough, is how homosexuality has a purpose some people like you haven’t figured out yet. And it’s long past due for that. You and what you think you know, have had your turn. It’s someone else’s turn, someone else’s time to be allowed to be known and understood. Religious communities are notorious for selling and enforcing fear of God, fear of learning something NEW, seeing something with fresh eyes and ears.
What’s ungodly to you, and where you got that from, isn’t new. Neither is believing contraception, or autopsy or women leading the church in ministry and other things were considered ungodly and wrong too.
Satan is not the reason you and many like you are losing people to share your belief.
The reason is that experience is a better teacher than your belief is.
Just SAYING that gay people are ungodly, as experience proves otherwise is and always will be the difference. There is also such a thing as overkill and not knowing WHEN to back off and take a breath.
I got scolded here for my long comments, and it was inferred they were disconnected and unintelligent.
The sermons here aren’t any different, except the reason I make my comments in the first place. None, NONE of what I’ve done, is motivated, denied or excused, by religious belief and hasn’t hurt a soul. However, certain beliefs (historically and contemporary) and the actions that have followed, can’t make that claim. It doesn’t matter if you didn’t personally attack someone, or engage that directly in what happened to them. There is tacit agreement with it happening. Bad enough. You attack an essence in gay people, that hets don’t have to suffer, so the outcomes are going to be different in more complex ways.
I don’t blame God OR Satan for any personal shortcomings, me or my fellow humans might have. I guess you might say that the differences between us, is owning what I do and say and making no excuses or dodging them that way. Nor giving anyone else an excuse for the same reason.
I read through your comment again. You made a disgusting conflation and shame on you. There is absolutely no comparison to made in accepting homosexuality, to accepting child molestation. You drop a bomb like that, you better own it.
The capacity I work in, I know ALL too well the depravity anyone can get up to. And homosexuality isn’t depravity at all. Not even close. There’s no ‘more likely’ or ‘higher incidence’ of any pathology towards abusing children within a gay person simply because they are gay either. You might as well believe the same stereotype about black sexuality racists and segregationists believed to maintain Jim Crow.
The color bar was an easier way to segregate, the way marital status is used against gay people to maintain the very stereotype you believe.
Experience is a great teacher, I don’t have to demand you ‘take it on faith’ that I know better than you about this.
There is never any reason to accept the abuse of another human being, that includes abusing gay people for being gay.
Just as there is no reason to accept the abuse of children, just because they are children.
But the more you rationalize abusing gay people, the same rationalization that’s stood to abuse females, gives me a better assessment of your character than I think you want to realize.
You actually make the jobs of law enforcement harder, in the same way you want to make the lives of gay people harder. And it helps nothing, and especially not getting at the truth you claim you care about.
The comparrison I was making was that of accepting SIN. Reguardless if you accept that an openly, actively gay lifestyle is sin or not the Bible says it is. I am also aware that homosexuals are not child molesters. I am not nor have I evr been homosexual. I have had other battles to deal with. I was NOT trying to preach I was explaining MY OPINION on this subject. I commented on this post because Matt inspired me with it. His ability to be so open about his battles is honestly refreshing. This is however the point I was trying to make. As a Christian I am charged to Love my Neighbor as Christ Loved the Church.Thats it! In my explanation of that I have been told how wrong I am for having that belief. I respect your opinion that I am wrong, I respectfully tell you I dont share your opinion.
As far as the abuse I absolutely agree! No excuse what so ever! it isnt right when it happens to any race, gender, CREED, or orientation. ANYONE that says any different is WRONG. That being said I said nothing about it being OK in my previous post. I NEVER rationalized abusing Gay people, NOT ONCE, it is SICK. Just as SICK as JIM CROW, just a SICK as RAPE, Just as SICK as molestation. If a debate is what is wanted I’m sorry but I will not take part any longer. I started this as a FRIENDLY encounter with a fellow human being on this big planet we call home for now.
I hear you have had suffering in your life, but do NOT mistake the fact that you are the only one. Experiance is what keeps me going. They may not be the same as yours but tell me thay yours were tougher to deal with! You have NO idea what I have had to overcome. If Character is what you want to question in me for trying to share my opinion that YOU asked about, fine Question it! I stand firm to my beliefs, God is LOVE, ALL HAVE SINED, and sometimes a good dose of fear is exactly what someone needs.
Also, IF the church is operating properly then women wouldnt be in the pulpit. Not that they cant be or shouldnt be but rather, God designed it differently. And the length of your post make no difference to me.
Nathan, it’s bad enough that you refer to homosexuality as a lifestyle. That’s REALLY bad to do that. It’s a wrongful definition for starters, because that’s NOT what homosexuality is.
And no, we’re NOT all sinners. Think about what kinds of people would make that assumption and presumption?
What kind of people would call homosexuality a lifestyle?
And I know that the religious definition of sin, and most followers don’t distinguish or define them…and because of that, serious problems ARE created by religious belief, rather than solved by them.
I haven’t dismissed any difficulties you’ve had, and I know that many people have needed to find comfort in religious belief to see them through those times.
But I’m a witness to how dismissive the same people of faith can be about other forms of evil and pain being inflicted, but as long as they profess their faith, it’s all good because of who takes the weight.
It would be a good start, to not call homosexuality a lifestyle. When you wrongfully define something, you’ll end up wrongfully addressing it, if it needs addressing at all.
Fair?
Nathan,
Thanks for that…it came as correction. Thanks brother!! God bless.
Christians correctly point out all sin in brothers & sisters. In fact, Jesus was our model. So immoral sexual expression, whether hetero or homo is not to be overlooked in the church, which is separate from the state, in which world we reside and engage in civil discourse. But you do make it a challenge sometimes;-)
Exactly, Christians will eagerly and forcefully point out sin in other people, and aren’t too concerned about being correct or not. “Immoral sexual expression is not to be overlooked.”
Yeah, well, the point is religious definition of what sin is and what the moral definition is overlooked all the time. Especially by you. Again, certain faith communities don’t make the correct distinctions about that, especially in context to civil and social liberty.
Without making a distinction between moral sin in gay people, and simple religious sin in het people, you’ll lose credibility for your faith community. And rightly so.
It should be a challenge, because the way people are getting bulldozed by powerful religious communities has been hurtful and doesn’t even work very well. It seems obviously that image is everything to you. As long as you sound sincere as a believer, than that can suffice as commitment to good. Whether actual good is being done, well, that seems to be the part that doesn’t matter to you.
Never mind, Regan. You’re too smart for me by half. Enjoy your choices. But don’t forget God loves you and is in your corner.
Am I to take your answer about my intelligence in the spirit in which you meant it, sarcastic? Or am I mistaken, you can correct me about that. And there is no need for you to remind me about how God feels about me.
@Sarel,
How wonderful for YOU. I don’t know if I mentioned it here, but all the noise and arrogant assumptions are interfering with MY getting to have God have A word with me. I see God everywhere, BUT in the so called ‘word’ printed in any of the books, and enforced on everyone else all this time.
In earlier times, the forced illiteracy to all BUT those books is a tell. God will reach whoever, without another mere mortal grabbing all the attention and saying that HE is the only rightful and correct interpreter of any of God’s intentions.
Frankly, there are some Christians who are SO noisy, shoving others aside to take up all the air in the room, that learning anything ELSE is a very difficult task. Don’t Christians think God can reach someone without THEIR interference and NOISE?
I have a great time with God, most days. And I ask what I need to do to stay strong in the midst of difficult things.
Especially because the work of a crime scene photographer is not an easy one.
But I don’t assume anyone has to hear about God FROM me, I just offer as much NEEDED support as possible and the results are usually wonderful.
So yeah, some Christians are so RUDE about their epiphanies as IF.
And have inflicted a lot of pain in the process.
It’s nobody’s business if you think another person isn’t doing God right. Or God hasn’t reached them in the time you think God should have.
If results matter, God is not in the disappearance and abuse of gay people. Gay people are showing up at God’s urging, same as you are. Does it not occur to you that some of us have figured out why, and it’s a good thing, and you haven’t?
Yes, Christians are one of the Biggest hinderances to God doing a good work in someone!
You should consider that seriously. You mentioned being molested by a youth pastor when you were a boy. I’ve had ongoing and different types of abuse for different reasons ALL MY LIFE. I’m female, I’m black…I’m smart and I don’t especially WANT to be Christian. All factors that were taken as an avenue to attack my character, my gender, my body, my color…
And there were times it was hard to like all that was NORMAL about myself, because I was assaulted and punished for any of those things.
So you’re no big hero for taking it out on gay people or claiming you’re not gay yourself anymore (if you ‘were’ gay) for your ‘choice’ to not sexually act like a gay person.
So if a gay person hates being gay, no shock there. Gay people are SET UP to hate themselves and their orientation.
It’s hard to be gay, it’s really tough to be a black woman. Negative stereotypes abound about black women, so there is no reason to allow the people who created the stereotype to control what’s said about me as a black person OR woman.
The difference between us is whether or not to embrace being authentic to it to teach the world who they are and should be. Without the people whose lives are most effected to tell it, then who should be believed the most?
Nathan,
Did you sucked into the battle!?!
In some places, yes they are Nathan. If Christians are going to use gay people especially as scapegoats, and engage the gov’t to harm gay people and restrict them in enabling their independence and self reliance, then yes. I live in CA, and nearly 50 million dollars was spent to involuntarily divorce gay couples who got married in the 6mo window to marry. And nearly as much was spent for that NOT to happen. Most of this funding to divorce gay people, came from religious orgs and individuals. Meanwhile, the rate of children in foster care, who are vulnerable to sex trafficking and porn, didn’t get nearly as much attention. So yeah, good works being done in other ways, wasn’t. I can bring up many examples of mixed messages and strange priorities coming from faith communities. If you have the time, I could list them for you.
No need, I agree. IF the Church got off its high horse and started funding those things that need funding how much better off would we as a society be? A classmate of mine lives in CA, He and his “partner” husband just adopted an adorable little boy. My only issue with it is he is going to be one spoiled little kid. They love him to pieces and have the means to give him a fantastic life. Do I agree with their life style? NOPE! But like I have said a few times, I am NOT judge or jurry, it isnt my place. My place is to show Love.
The only reason that was ever necessary was because someone sued same-sex “marriage” into law. These marriage amendments were the result of people filing lawsuits.
That’s all you think it is? Figures.
@ Regan DuCasse
I’m sorry, it was not my intention to be rude. And just to be clear – I AM gay. I am really sorry that you have such a distorted view of what the Bible teaches and find it to be irrelevant for today – I have found real healing there. Healing no amount of antidepressants, psychiatrists or tolerance was able to give me.
When God called me out of homosexuality I was on extremely high doses of antidepressants – and had been on antidepressant medication for more than 10 years. Within a couple of months of turning my life over to God, I was off the antidepressants and have now been off any form of medication for nearly a year. I could even stop taking my blood pressure medication as it dropped back to normal – it used to be 240/160mmHg without medication. God’s love healed me where nothing else could. And that’s why I speak out – not in judgement but to give hope.
Hope things get better for you and that you find real peace,
Sarel
Sarel,
I don’t have such a distorted view of the Bible and what it teaches. It’s the Christians and how they treat those of us who aren’t men, or heterosexual or sometimes white or rich, or their idea of mentally sound that do.
Thank you very much.
And I’m happy for you and your ability to get off anti depressants. Sometimes doctors are too eager to medicate, and a lot of people are too eager to take them.
But saying you’re gay, and then saying ‘when God called me out of homosexuality’, doesn’t make sense.
And is pejorative regarding being gay as a mental and emotional disorder or bad thing unto itself that caused any other issues you might have suffered.
Christianity and Christians have messed up a lot of gay people by direct emotional and mental abuse and misinforming gay people and those around them about homosexuality.
And not owning the fact that societal isolation and bigotry can cause pathology.
There is no clinical process, and even less legal and social consistency involved in Biblical belief and how to respond to homosexuality.
@ Regan DuCasse
And just to explain this following statement of mine:
“I write to you with a certain amount of terror! You write quite prolifically and I tend to answer in kind – and that is just a recipe for disaster in terms of my time management. Concerning you I have been exercising considerable restraint!”
I simply meant that you and I both tend to write a lot – nothing wrong with that except that it takes up a lot of time. And that is the reason why I was exercising restraint – I wanted to chat to you but I really have a lot of other things to do and therefore don’t have a lot of time to enter into lengthy discussions at present. Please know that I was in no way trying to insult you!
Thanks for that, Sarel. And I want to be respectful, but you just did the very thing that damages the credibility of some Christians as the gold standard for being all knowing and all effective about homosexuality. I’ll explain what I mean if you’re interested. Thank you for taking the time. Typically Mondays and weekends are my time off, and it’s spent writing these comments. True, they DO take up a surprising about of time, so I do thank you for responding.
I want you to note something up thread. My work is forensic science and criminal analysis. Porn is legal, but sex trafficking, child porn are unfortunately intertwined with it. It’s a fact that the most pre planned, repressive religious societies, such as in Utah, are the largest consumers of porn. Sexual repression isn’t healthy, and no credible clinician would say to do so. Now it’s easy to point to sexual taboos that are considered unhealthy or sins by religious definition. But are in fact, quite healthy, or important to individual quality of life. For religious communities to defame homosexuality, gay people and gay sex as criminal, or dangerous is wrong. These are themselves, unhealthy and deliberate misinforming of the public. And no religious community deserves to get away with this.
@Regan… Once again, I repeat,… you must recognize the authority of God and the words that He has left us as being from Him, if you don’t, you’ll be worshiping any of the other gods that human-kind worships. One of yours being human philosophy. Until then there can be no constructive discussion in this Christian blog with you until you get to that point of understanding as we will always be referring to God as our sole source of information. Many other philosophies would often have us deny God or place him equal with man in reasoning and thought.This isn’t going to happen we me and am suggesting the same with others you are in discussion with. I certainly understand that there are many who carry around the name Christian who don’t use it correctly but this doesn’t wipe out the fact of who God really is or diminish the magnitude of what He has commanded . You pronounce guilt upon Christianity when, in effect, you pronounce God guilty because you don’t understand Him. How much plainer can this be said? You are blinded by your humanistic “wisdom” and this, also, being something that God will allow to happen. Perhaps, one day, you will be able to see beyond your current state of thought and honestly take a step out of it and find truth. I sincerely hope this happens for you.
Well how absolutely presumptuous of you to decide that, just because I’m not wearing God and Jesus on my chest and using religion as a badge of character, like you.
You think I don’t recognize God enough for you.
You think I don’t show God enough praise (in your estimation), then that’s reason enough for you to assess my character.
Well, you know what Gene, there are mere mortals commenting here. And those are the only people opening their holes and acting like that. I happen to think that God doesn’t need a hard sell from mere mortals like you. That God can handle it better than you can if I’m not offering up praise and self congratulation. I think God isn’t as petty and in need of constant validation like you seem to be. And I especially think there is more back patting here for people who have had little self restraint, than people who NEVER had issues with addiction of any kind, or with mistreating another human through their sexuality and hiding behind something else in order to not be held accountable for it.
Really Gene, that ‘my God is the right God, MY God is the only true one’, ‘the word of God is indisputable’ is another example of “when you have an opinion I’ll give it to you” mentality.
I don’t think I’m a better human being because I’m het, and I especially don’t think it necessary to invoke God for reasons of being curious, questioning, smart, compassionate and just.
And I happen to be a woman, a member of humanity constantly abused by men especially saying exactly the same thing you are. You’re NO DIFFERENT, you do nothing to distinguish yourself from the bad Christians, or those who misrepresent God. And yeah, I DO know how to recognize that.
You’re saying nothing substantive about the roots of porn, and addiction to it. Nor how society engages contradictory messaging when it comes to gay people.
I don’t need you to remind me about God. I need you to act like you acknowledge the issue of porn’s impact on people like Matt…or women like me.
NOT presumptions Regan, it’s apparent, VERY apparent!
Yeah. SO?
I haven’t had my coffee yet, but the reason for the previous post is that when I tried to give context to sexual repression and porn, Davide and Gene were rude and disrespectful and didn’t answer my legitimate questions. That is the kind of disdain and disrespect that gives Christians a bad name. If enough of you treat other people as if they are stupid, or their questions are, you get what you give.
A particular inconsistency in porn consumption is especially how straight men, in the light of day will show exceptional disrespect and threat to lesbians. And if I reject a man, or when other women do, being called a lesbian is used as an epithet. However, women having sex with each other is a large percentage of the porn straight men like to watch. A clear example of the crass dichotomy of bigotry.
@Regan: It’s hypocrisy inside self-righteousness, wrapped in lies, all inside a box old box of fear.
And when confronted, they make stuff up or resort to quotes from their holy book which was written by powerful men to maintain their power.
Thank you Katty, for your words of comfort and reason. How sad it is, that’s not something I found here. Of all places.
Well, it’s a tell we can read when offensive terms like lifestyle, are used to describe homosexuality. One is their sexual orientation whether they are having a sex life or not. I found Narel’s scare quotes when describing a man’s husband, as offensive too.
It’s the two faces I know all too well with religious folks, that they think we don’t recognize.
As I say, I don’t need them and their hard sell to acknowledge or recognize God. In fact, I’m fairly sure that God doesn’t need it either. Why wouldn’t these guys think a woman wouldn’t find it exceptionally suspect that no women participated in writing the Bible, that women have no religious power in the world in balance to that of men, and regardless of the barbaric tribalism and primitive fears and misunderstanding those cultures had, there are people thinking that that standard of thought is good enough for people they don’t like, but not for themselves. All you have to do is show me you REALLY want EVERYONE to be treated the way you want to be, and let the results of that speak for themselves.
The anti social will do bad things regardless of their lives starting out and being treated justly and equally.
Normal people will respond in kind.
I want to note, the beautiful and inspiring life of Sally Ride. Unfortunately because of archaic standards in the Air Force and NASA, she was a closeted lesbian. She had a female life partner of 27 years, whom my condolences and love go out to. Ms. Ride distinguished herself remarkably. She was the inspiration for millions of young girls. And now perhaps, millions of lesbian teens to give their lives over to their own dreams and hopes.
That gays and lesbians with this potential, are repressed by a SINGULAR factor, that determines more negatives than positives. It is a human being without hope and without appreciation of more than the singular attribute for which they are distrusted and denied, that threatens what’s good.
It’s been true of women, it’s been true about skin color. True about sexual orientation.
I want so very badly, to make this world a more just and open place for young gay boys and girls to show the world that their sexual orientation is not the content of their character that need not determine their mistreatment and discrimination. But their talent and intelligence determine their dreams and that of their culture.
These archaic religious relics that deny females and the gender variant their self determination and identity, have been PROVEN dangerous. Not just to them, but to everyone.
We are all BORN to be different, and it’s the difference that makes us all important and interesting.
As I said before: the fingers are more in number and work in opposition to the thumb. Which stands alone, different and less in number, but not importance. Without the thumb, the hand is less strong and skilled. I know in the entire of my heart, that gays and hets are to be allied like the fingers to the thumb of the hand. That we are meant to do great things together. And the tragedy is of people still too cowardly or incurious about anything different than the old Biblical party line to try otherwise.
Were the religious always in total control, something tells me we’d still all be in caves. Galileo was punished for his discovery. Elizabeth Cady Stanton wasn’t allowed to attend law school because women weren’t allowed to. There is still a minority of women on SCOTUS. I don’t have to question GOD why.
But the mere mortals who say they know God better than you and me.
And they don’t like it when I question THEM. So those who claim they have all the answers, apparently don’t.
Thanks for your support. Be well.
Matt, Thank you for a post filled with so much humility and truth. You made clear in your post that your definition of praise is much more than just a musical one, but as I read it this verse came to mind.
“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (Colossians 3:16-17 ESV)”
Everything we do includes struggling against temptation. And amen to praise and thanksgiving being key to victory!
I was hoping, maybe to impart some information about pornography and it’s victims or consumers and societal impact, from a law enforcement perspective. There is a point when sermons and quoting the Bible IS irrelevant to correlation and causation, because we are a nation of various kinds of religious education and types, and typically the most repressive by way of religion, the more these communities consume porn. It’s not new. Think about how old the Kama Sutra is. The tangents I went on were inevitable because there is little contemporary context being brought to bear here. So, I responded in secular kind. I was hoping for some kind of SHARING of information that wasn’t the same old, same old. After all, the Bible isn’t going to say anything different than what it’s ALWAYS said. But crime stat databases are going to change. And if faith communities are part of the problem, and they are, then it’s high time they owned that, and moved along with the rest of us towards a solution other than more sermons.
Thanks Matt! I have been hooked three times during my life for a period of several months. Six years ago it resulted in on line chatting and eventually acting out. It almost destroyed me, my marriage and family. I found personal accountability to be very helpful and also had someone put a Christian blocker on my computer and they own the password. I haven’t been tempted to look now for 6 years – praise God!
Praying for you brother!
Brad
Matt, wonderful, transparent, powerful and very helpful post. Two passages of Scripture (which you no doubt know well) that were and will always be helpful to me in staying free of porn and in other struggles with the flesh:
1 Corinthians 10:13 ” No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”
1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
God bless you and keep you, brother!
Holy schnikes!
Y’all still arguing? I think someone needs to light up a big fatty and pass it around before it comes to knuckles and fists….
@ Katty Wompus
Thank you for answering my question, and clarifying your point…
“No; I am not trying to contend that Jesus Christ is not an actual historical figure. That would be silly.”
“Yes I am suggesting that Jesus was just a man, and that Christians are delusional for believing in His deity.”
My next question to you is this; if you regard Jesus not as God, do you instead think of Him not only as “just a man,” but also a good, moral man or perhaps as an exceptionally wise prophet who spoke many profound truths?
By the way Ms Wompus, I find it interesting that you chose to capitalize the word his when you explained your belief that Christians are delusional for believing in Christ’s deity. Since that is a very common way for supposedly delusional Christians to show deference to His deity, is that an indication that you are delusional as well?
Cut and paste.
Seriously, you are reduced to whining about and seeing some hidden meaning in capitalization?? Some people even have a delusional fear of typing “god” or “God”, using the inane g-d or g_d or some other idiocy
The German language capitalizes All nouns.
btw, I will also never be the spelling police. It;s the internet. Typos happen. Get over it.
Yes
Even though you didn’t ask me, bigchas, I’ll throw in too, just to clarify. I believe that Jesus was a thoughtful, and exceptional human being, in his way.
But a lot, too many Christians, don’t follow Christ as closely as they say they do, and don’t care to recognize the moral, and just ways people other than Christians go about their lives and how they treat other people.
Time and time again, I got lectured about ‘turning away from Jesus and God’.
And how did the folks here come to THAT conclusion?
And by the way Chas, you didn’t answer any of my questions. One in particular about when has equal treatment and justice ever hurting anyone?
And considering that the Christians here have decided THEY have ALL of the answers and know The Truth, that should be an easy one, shouldn’t it?
Brother, thank you so much for being so transparent and sharing your struggle and how God has been doing such a work in your life. I too struggle with pornography as well as battling same sex attractions. Almost every week for several years now I can understand what you were saying and felt like the same way recently as I fell to porn. Especially what you said about personal pride. The Lord has shown me how much My personal pride and my image of being a perfection Christian has kept me from being transparent about this issue in my life. I think it was well said about how your reputation can be your biggest idol. So very true. I applaud you for being transparent about your struggle. I understand how challenging that could be. I hope you countinue to remain on the course God has you on. The devil will do anything to try you tangle up again in the bondage of sin but through Christ we can be free and free indeed. As the bible says we are not of those who shrink back (Hebrews 10:39). I hope you continue to remain steadfast and unmovable always abounding in the work of the Lord. One of the things my pastor shares me often whenever we discuss my struggle is to not speak the problem but speak the solution. Speak victory and deliverance in the midst of struggle and temptation. Begin to praise God and magnify God and make him bigger than our struggles and we’ll see them get smaller and smaller. I just praise God for the victory over my struggles and his grace for me and you. I hope you can get some accountability that can help prevent you from going back to porn and keep on remaining focused on Christ.
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