I’ve been aware of pro-gay theology from early on in my walk with The Lord. Almost immediately upon revealing my repentance from my same sex desires, my email inbox was flooded with messages from people presenting to me a ‘new’ interpretation of the Scriptures that did not forbid or condemn homosexual behavior within the context of a monogamous relationship.
As of recently, the reality of this theology arising within certain denominations has hit much closer to home, motivating me to speak out more about it and to try and provide some solid resources.
Please remember that deceit is subtle, or it wouldn’t be deceit. Just a small twist of the truth here or there can have massive, eternal, consequences.
This article was written by Joe Dallas, of whom I’m sure many of you are familiar with. You can click “Scriptural Arguments” at the top of the page to bring you down to that section: http://www.narth.com/docs/dallas.html
can’t change God’s mind? Change his word. Only a moron would take ‘LGBT theology’ seriously. Silly
Actually God has changed his mind several times and that is literally in scripture. Saving Lot’s life when he wanted to fire bomb the Earth, Jesus’ words on divorce as an “option” God never intended but now allows, and the move from the law to grace.
Jeus didn’t allow it, he said Moses allowed it for the “hardness of our hearts”. While you accuse other Christians of picking and choosing, that is precisely what you’re doing. so what does that mean? Jesus and the Israelite religion did not consider people “born gay” but it was part of a whole host of sexual sins, and while I know you didn’t chose to be, there are many other explanation for why it can happen. But let there be no doubt about what the Christians beleived. Why do you think the first Christian Emperor outlawed homosexual practices? The early Christians were slaughtered by the Romans for adhering to their beliefs and we all know how the Romans lived sexually. The new Christian PC verion many take on today is a far cry from Jesus’ teachings.. And in abortion you take someone elses life, which is about as serious as it gets, how can yo possibly defend it? (at least you seemingly do) If Christ came back today to teach what he did then he’d be crucified all over again. By the left wingers for teaching sexual purity and by the right wingers for teaching to feed and clothe the poor, and heal the sick and dencounce riches.
The Old Testament clearly allowed multiple wives, and God clearly changed his mind in the New Testament. Or, perhaps the women hardened their hearts and would not follow the Bible?
Thanks for posting this, Matt. It is great reference piece for a discussion on this topic. So many of these pro-gay theology arguments seem to come up more and more frequently in and out of the church. Some good friends of mine just left the church down the street from me because that church accepted pro-gay theology. My friends were highly criticized, almost persecuted by fellow church members for trying to present the opposing Biblical viewpoint. It is sad to see this kind of decepton dividing and destroying churches!
great resource Matt!
thank you Matt for speaking out. Honestly, I think only ppl like you will be able to effectively speak out on this issue. I’m a straight female but have a masters degree in the Hebrew Bible and yes, it’s getting increasingly unacceptable to not accept pro-gay theology. And if you do, you’re instantly labled as an intolerant hater, no matter how nice or “tolerant” you are. Despite this being such a clear issue in the Bible the ways to get around it are ever more increasing and pervasive. So, again, I think God has a very special ministry just for people like you. I think it’s looking like we who believe in the commandments about sexuality will soon be a minority who will be fairly hated. That’s my perception.
God bless, and stay strong.
Christians have been twisting scriptures for years. Some churches even allow women to speak and teach in church – even though Paul explicitly banned then from doing so. The hypocrisy!
and where in the Law does it say the can’t speak and teach in church? ever heard of deaconesses (Rom 16:1, Didascalia, etc). The point is that homosexuality was outlawed because it was not God’s intent in creation, it was man and woman (hence why we have the physical differences we do and can procreate). i.e. your’re not born/created gay. If Matt believes in the Bible’s stance on this, I think he shouldn’t be harassed not to. do you?
I don’t deny there are anomalies in the bible – as you have pointed out. But, verses like I Corinthians 14:34-35 make women’s inferior status in the Bible quite clear.
Of course, now it’s fashionable to ignore the clear teachings of God’s written word and claim such passages should be taken in context to their culture.
If that is your position, then we must also ignore the verses that deny equality to homosexuals… unless you’re a hypocrite.
deny equality? how? plz explain. and no, a few lines from Paul about women’s role in the church does not make women’s worth less. and it’s also a separate topic. All human beings have the same worth no matter what, however, the Israelite religion and Christianity (derived from it) (and btw you’re free to leave it) had rules about sexuality. Homosexuality was denounced and sex prescribed to be within the marriage covenant. And like I just stated before, the premise is that noone is created homosexual. See Genesis. And our physical features testify to it. It doesn’t mean you can help what you feel, but it does mean that something or several things, caused it, ie you were’t born that way.. That’s the core issue isn’t it. Doctors don’t know what causes homosexuality because there are no physical evidences. So it’s psychological. And what is going on right now is a censuring of the fact that there are many people who have changed and left homosexuality, by the LGBT movement, and there is also an agenda to shut down any research about it because now it’s deemed a “sexual orientation.” There are pych docs who also thing pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Does that make them innocent if they act out on it? or should we quarantine them?.Or should we maybe instead try to figure out how they got to be that way. You’re free to think whatever you want, but when ppl like Matt who believe in the Bible’s stance gets mocked and an onslaught of ppl telling him to give into his feelings despite his outspoken belief about this, you’re not being very respectful are you. Because respect on this issue is not a two way street for the LGBT ppl. The pro-gay theology agenda within Christianity is not about taking a separate route,but it’s all about shutting down those who follow Biblical teachings.
IluvYHWH
A rant and not a cogent response?
1) ” no, a few lines from Paul about women’s role”
The entire Bible is quite clear on the women’s inferior role. You are quite welcome to leave the religion if you do not want to obey the Bible.
2) ” sex prescribed to be within the marriage covenant.”
A) homosexuals are never denied marriage in the bible.
B) marriage covenant? Like when rapists were allowed to marry their victims? (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) – which, by the way, illustrates the bible’s treatment of women as interiors.
3) gay people aren’t born that way? Your premise is flawed. You were born straight, or you were born gay and you CHOSE to be straight. If this is the case, then you are to be pitied like Matt.
4) ” Doctors don’t know what causes homosexuality…” Inaccurate. This is getting tiresome.
5) “… Matt who believe in the Bible’s stance gets mocked…” People like you lied to Matt. People like you lied to me. I never mocked Matt.
6) So, how do you disobey the bible’s clear teaching on women, yet demand Matt not be gay? Why the hypocrisy?
If this is getting “tiresome” why are you responding? and everyone who opposes you is ranting? and no, women are not of less worth, and neither does the passage in Deut about marrying someone you have raped. You clearly don’t know Hebrew, or deeper Bible studies. And no, I have no plans to leave Christianity, since I love it, and believe in it. You seem delusional about what it says though; homosexuals are not denied to marry?? Homosexuality is a declared sin, and you say that? ok, that’s a pretty deep denial. And no, docs don’t know what causes homosexuality, if you think they do, plz state what it is. And I demand Matt no be gay?? so you just make up stuff and throw them out. where did I say that? quote me. I said it’s wrong for pro-gay ppl to try to peruade him not to follow what the Bible teached. There is something called repect. Learn about it.
“respect”. Ps. he gets repeatedly mocked on his threads by ppl. The intolerance and lack of common decency is pretty astounding.
IluvYHWH
1) ” If this is getting “tiresome” …”
It’s tiresome that you’re wrong and unwilling to be corrected. Pardon that miscommunication.
2) ” and no, women are not of less worth…”
If you feel convicted for your sin of teaching men, then repent. Please don’t justify yourself to me. Only God can judge your hardened heart.
3) “You clearly don’t know Hebrew, or deeper Bible studies”
Apparently I have. I called you on your sin and hypocrisy.
4) The bible says it’s a sin for women to teach, and the bible says homosexuality is a sin. If you chose to disobey the bible, what kind if hypocrisy allowed you to tell anyone homosexuality is a sin?
5) You said homosexuality was a choice. I called you out on your lie. If you loved and respected Matt, you wouldn’t lie to him.
where did I say it’s a choice? quote me. when you can’t answer something you just skip it. I have never said that, and don’t believe it is so, although now it’s popular to experiment for many who do whatever. I have said you’re not born that way, and there are vast psychological reasons for why it occurs. That is what scientists think too, since there are no physical reasons. THere is no gay DNA gene. You have called me out on sin and hypocrisy?? you don’t even know what Deut says about rape and I pointed that out to you. You don’t. It’ abundetly clear. And you compare Pauls statement about women teaching in the church to homosexuality which is prohibited in the law and also declared in the creation account and Jesus made it clear what marriage is about. You don’t have to agree, but your dishonest in trying to justify it. And you
re alos rude. You’re the one lying to Matt, encouraging him to go against the Bible. You’ll have to answer to God for that.
IluvYHWH
1) “where did I say it’s a choice?”
You said: “It doesn’t mean you can help what you feel, but it does mean that something or several things, caused it, ie you were’t born that way.”
Now, consider your words: you were not born gay, Matt is gay, and you’re telling him to obey the Bible and not be gay. How is this not choosing?
2) I know you do not feel convicted when I pointed out your hypocrisy. The bible says:
Ephesians 4:18
They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
You ignore the clear scriptures that command women not to teach, yet insist Matt obey the scriptures about homosexuality. How can you encourage anyone to obey the Bible when you refuse to?
?? so when you run out of arguments you just repeat the same one over and over again, even though I have already answered it. And your first response doesn’t even make any sense. To repeat again what I have already said, Do you think child molesters chose to be attracted to kids and want to have sex with them? there is no proof that anyone is born gay, despite the PC idea that that is the case. If it was so, by the very least noone would would ever be able to change, a it is ppl do, all the time both ways. Sexuality is far more complex to fit into your little box. Matt can choose, and is, to follow the Bible’s teachings, i.e. choose NOT to act out on his feelings. If his feelings will change is between him and God. We all have a choice to give into feelings not condoned by the Bible. gay ppl are NOT the only one struggling with all sorts of feelings we don’t want to give into. You can’t back up what you think with neither the Bible nor science, and you can do what you want but
cont: refrain from encouraging Matt to go against what the Bible teaches. He has declared open and loud that he does not believe homosexuality is right, so you’re the one who needs to back off and respect HIS belief.
1) “there is no proof that anyone is born gay, despite the PC idea that that is the case.”
A rant does not make you right.
2) “If it was so, by the very least noone would would ever be able to change, a it is ppl do, all the time both ways”
You cannot. Even Alan Chambers of Exodus International admits one cannot change orientation.
3) “He has declared open and loud that he does not believe homosexuality is right, so you’re the one who needs to back off and respect HIS belief.”
But Matt did not change and I will not encourage him to be a liar like you. Matt needs to know that God made him who he is and mot he a hypocrite.
4) I Timothy 2:12: You demand Matt obey the bible, yet you ignore the parts that clearly command women not to teach. Jesus called you a white-washed tomb.
I hope you don’t eat lobster, crab and/or pork. Do you keep you head covered in church?
IluvYHWH, those dietary and church attire comments and questions were directed at you. BTW, YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh was a Canaanite war god the ancient Hebrews chose to adopt as their chief god when they moved into the land of Canaan (they just chose not to worship the other gods in YHWH’s pantheon, including his wife, Asherah) ….Did you know that?
Thank you, Matt! Great info. Keep it up! tami
________________________________
Get it right Tami, he’s trying to keep it down, not keep it up…Its all about repression and lying to you people.
What we need to do is to take control of the language.
Some people equate pro-gay with pro-buggery. But there is nothing pro-gay about being pro-buggery. Buggery is bad for body and soul. How can it be pro-gay?
@shoes, what’s buggery?
Davide, I’d heard the term before and was curious as to the exact meaning myself….guess wikipedia is good for something sometimes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buggery
Oh sodomy….thanks i thought it had something to do with insects
You can twist the Bible to say anything you want. One can make anything look “biblical”. This is the failure of all “Bible-based” denominations. The real and single Christian reason against homosexuality is that the historical Church never accepted homosexuality and never read and understood those verses this way. In short, we cannot depart from the historical and original understanding of these verses now in discussion.
What is the point of the Bible, really? I mean it….It is ancient, outdated and inaccurate in nearly every conceivable way. There is medical and scientific evidence that suggests gay people are born gay, they even have different brain structures. Why do so many of you fools rely on a book written by madmen?
Reblogged this on The Closet Conflict and commented:
Thanks, Matt! Great words of wisdom, couldn’t have said it better myself. Deceit is VERY subtle, and easy to buy into because of carnal desires and temptations.
Pingback: Are you nuts? – A look at Eunuchs and the pro-gay defense. « The Closet Conflict
Guess there are a lot of what davide would consider “morons” out there. The Episcopal church has been publicly pro-gay for many many years. Yes, it is losing members. For every person driven away by the ECUSA’s pro-gay theology, along comes another who finds it affirming after struggling for years. And those are just the gay Christians themselves–not to mention their friends and family members who get tired of the inherently dysfunctional, paradoxical stance on this issue that their old churches endorse, when virtually all of these same churches (overwhelmingly Evangelical) have long turned a blind eye to no-fault divorce, unmarried couples living together, children born out of those couples “shacking up” with no intention of getting married, etc. Essentially they’ve been changing His word on the sanctity of marriage for decades. Yet because the mainlines like PCUSA, ECUSA, ELCUSA (and many many others) don’t see “gay Christian” as an oxymoron, we get accused by the Evangelicals of being apostate.
I don’t think the Episcopal Church will die, but it’s future will indeed be smaller. But virtually every Christian denomination is experiencing the same demographic downfall, including extremely conservative groups like the Southern Baptist Convention. People are leaving the ECUSA (or SBC) and settling for comfy agnosticism or outright atheism more than anything. And that is a shame, but if the Episcopal Church’s witnessing helps keep even one gay person from committing suicide, its “evolved” ministry has worked the wonder of Christ’s teachings. I don’t think the same can be said about the condemning churches, though I’d love to be proven wrong.
For me I feared giving up the scripture as the North star of my life if I were to come to terms with my sexuality. I knew the passages and had convinced myself that I would never embrace homosexuality because to do so would mean I would have to throw out scripture – it was either all true of none of it was. I embraced the belief that the Bible was 1)inspired by God, 2)revealed by God, and 3)inerrant and infallible. Amazingly, since saying the words “I am a gay man.” in 2009 I have grown to see that evangelicals pick and choose there inerrancy.
By that I mean that if a passage is inconvenient (head covering for women, equality for women in God’s eyes, etc.) then it becomes a cultural truth not a universal one. If it deals with an issue that they see as a moral sin (homosexuality….and…well…not sure what else would…oh yeah, abortion) then it is a universal truth and is therefore applicable for all generations.
Long story short, I came to a place where I still see the Bible as 1)inspired by God and 2)revealed by God, but have no illusions that it is inerrant nor infallible. The literal interoperation of scripture by evangelicals (of which I was one) is one based in denial of the reality that there are hundreds of places in scripture where there are inconsistencies and in-congruencies. Admitting that doesn’t cheapen or undermine Christianity, it just means that humans are not perfect.
We cannot ascribe perfection to something that is not – only God is perfect.
How is God perfect when he changes his mind several times in the Bible? How is God perfect when his plan involves Satan betraying him, the fall of man and the eventual fall of Satan? God created an imperfect universe, how then is he perfect? God makes bets with Satan and doesn’t even know the hearts of his followers and tests his believers (Job, Abraham, Japheth, Lot, etc…) and yet he’s still perfect? As far as the Bible is concerned, God is a monster and a failure.
why are you on here if you hate the Bible? keep it to yourself. And FYI it has NOT been proven that ppl are born gay. THere are lots of studies and theories floating around and nothing conclusive. So, get your facts straight before posting.
IluvYHWH,
Why are you here encouraging Matt to lie about who he was born to be – a gay man. You could troll other pages where all the members are equally as homophobic as you.
Dear IluvYHWH, I don’t “hate” the Bible…I don’t hate anyone or anything, what is the point of that? You prefer blind belief and faith over actual thought and reason, that’s your prerogative. I did not say it has been proven that people are born gay, but there is plenty of medical and scientific evidence to support the claims of people being born gay. Perhaps you need to take your own advice and actually research before posting.
@Dana, I know all about Canaan, El, Asherah etc etc etc. And your point is…? and I know there are plenty of studies suggesting all kinds of stuff and yet there is NOTHING conclusive. Sexuality is waay more complicated than that which researchers also know, which you should know. Environement and even minerals play a role. It’s a whole host of things. But it’s also a fact that ppl change. I know someone that I’ve had extensive conversations about this personally. And I know of many others to. It’s a FACT that this is being censured and supressed. And the guy from Exodus whom Tapman loves to cite is married, to a woman. He says he’s not gotten rid of SSA but it does not mean he has gotten attraction for the opposite sex. Researchers simly don’t know all the answers to this, but our physiology pount
cont. clearly shows we were born to have sex with the opposite sex. And it’s not only the Bible that teaches that, but every major world religion. Buddism prohibits manual, oral and anal sex. Are you about to tell them off and tell them taht they are wrong for believing that? My whole point is that you can go on and believe whatever you want, but ppl, ESPECIALLY Christians, should lay off ppl like Matt and stop telling him to disobey the teachings of the Bible which he clearly stands by. If you don’t show respect for others beliefs, don’t expect anyone to respect yours.
“Please remember that deceit is subtle, or it wouldn’t be deceit. Just a small twist of the truth here or there can have massive, eternal, consequences.” Like the scare tactics here – legalism is great isn’t it. You make the assumption that a Pro Gay Christian is the one doing the twisting – I don’t think so.
it’s not an assumption, it’s simply knowing Hebrew and history. You’re the one promoting deceit. Join the Greco-Roman religion, they slaughtered Christians and promoted homosexuality.
Homosexuality and what was going on in the Greco Roman world are worlds apart – I was more concerned with your quip about massive eternal consequences – a novel way of saying go to hell, thanks.
first thing we all do when we miss the mark, stray from the straight and narrow, is justify it.
IluvYHWH,
The exact way you justify your hypocricy? Do tell…
same old same old statements from you. And I have already answered them. And yes, ppl change. I know of it personally, as do most ppl who try to make it ok, because if you’re not born that way you have no reason to argue for it the way you do. And since you pull in Exodus, they follow the Bible’s teachings on this, unlike you. So why align yourself with them? You denounce what the Bible teaches.
IluvYHWH,
“I know of it personally, as do most ppl who try to make it ok, because if you’re not born that way you have no reason to argue for it the way you do.”
People are not born gay, but Matt has to choose not to be gay? I believe your moral corruption is affecting your logic.
Ancient Hebrews slew thousands (according to the Bible), so how are they any better?
If god commanded them to slay thousands, they are better.
If not, they are no better.
I’ve said nothing about who is going to hell. And def don’t plan to. Not my job. I will tell you though that if you go and twist what Scripture is saying about this, you’re treading dangerous territory. You don’t have to agree but you’re committing a great sin lying about it,which you did in above post. We all know what the LGBT movement stands for, but they’re at least secular. When ppl calim to be Christians and come and not only encourage other Christians to go against what it says on this issue but even lie about what it says, then we’re hitting rock bottom.
Nothing can separate me fromt the Love of God…..oh except a different opinion to yours and I’m in eternal danger…..My salvation – your salvation is much surer than you suggest. Cheers
do you ever get tired of being so cynical? Matt chooses to follow Biblical teachings and not give into what it denounces. He’s not alone. We all face things we want to do that we don’t do. We choose not to give into feelings. And like I said before, there are ppl who change from being gay to straigh AND vice versa, denying you’re born that way. What do you think of pre-marital sex? or abortion?
Pre-marital sex – sorry too late to comment on that one, married twenty years. Abortion…not interested, don’t have a womb
Sorry not interested in debate.
so you begin by attacking me personally, then saying I attack personally? great logic. I know one thing, you do NOT know that ppl are born gay. Not even scientists know that, And it is a FACT that ppl have changed. I know ppl personally, so you’re denying it, (nothing new, that’s teh PC thing to do) as does the whole LGBT movement. THose who leave get shunned. So, you may wanna do some research instead. And you didn’t answer my question about abortion and premarital sex. Plz do. And also; do you think ppl are born bi-sexual? do you think pedophiles are born with their sexual attraction to kids? and re: intersex ppl, no, that’s different altogether. that’s a form of a birthdefect, and they should themselves choose what to do.
I was trying to be helpful, I think more people would listen to you if you didn’t come across as an arrogant bigot. Notice I am not attacking you, I am saying this is how you come across. The Bible instructs us to take wise counsel – bit of humility wouldn’t go astray mate.
I’ve said my piece….just for interests sake – there is this guy called Alan Chambers, he has probably met a few thousand more gay people than you will ever know as he works as President of Exodus – you know, one of the main organizations that work to heal gays. According to him 99.9% of the people he has known show no real permanent healing. I would say 0.01 % success rate would not give a gay person a lot of hope would it.
BTW labelling intersex people as a “birth defect” is a bit insensitive – remember this is a public forum – more wise counsel…..for free.
IluvYHWH, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
You’re as smug as ever. when you say how you think I come across it’s ok, but when I say how you come accross I’ a bigot? You’re definition of a bigot is anyone who disagrees with you. here’s what Alan also says; “I believe that any sexual expression outside of heterosexual, monogamous marriage is sinful according to the Bible,” Mr. Chambers emphasized.” That’s not what you do. Plus, since I know for a fact about ppl who have changed, and are happy, it is inherently false to say you cannot change and ppl like you wouldn’t be so worried and so adament about silencing them if you didn’t have your agenda to strive for which involves far more than gay rights.. And why can’t you answer my question about pre-marital sex and abortion? It’s surely because you think it is ok,right. Because you throw out anything the Bible has to say on sexual issues. And ppl being born with both genitals IS a deformation; no different than those who are born with other deformations, which is a whole long list. You think you’re being sensitive or PC by saying it’s not? You’re simply denying a medical fact.
Your right about the smug thing – can’t help myself. I define a bigot as anyone unable to listen to anothers point of view because of preconceived ideas. I’m not worrying about silencing anyone Matt – Gay rights are bigger than either of us – and like it or not change is a comin’. Thanks for the discussion.
I’ve noticed one thing about your blog – (I’ll talk about you as your the “Christian”) your replies tend to attack the character of the person making them rather than actually talking about the issue in a rational way. I just want to make one thing clear because this part of the issue is so clear that it can not seriously be debunked – people are born gay – most mothers know their child is gay well before the child does, school yard bullies pick them out before they even know themselves.
You said there is conflicting evidence in the scientific community – you might want to actually do some research. The only people with any conflict are break away Christian groups that are not recognized by the wider scientific community and people like you who parrot the nonsense.
You said in a comment that people change from being gay to straight – this is a shallow understanding of the issue – people can deny their sexuality, they can change their behaviour but they can not turn straight. Being gay is not “having gay sex”, I would be curious how you would treat intersex people whose gender can be difficult to establish – are they perverts because both may have penises yet both may be female?
If you want to continue calling them distorted that is up to you – but this is certain – God created Gay people the way they are.
You’re the one who is intolerant because anyone who don’t agree with you is according to you a bigot. This utter inability to debate anything without resorting to such name calling in controversial matters such as homosexuality and also abortion is an ever present common thread for those who are on the liberal side of these two issues. Matt doesn’t agree with you so why are you on this blog to begin with? And change is coming? really? what’s new under the sun? not homosexuality, that’s for sure. In Jesus’ days living under the Roman oppression I can assure you they were very familiar with it and they rejected it. You can live it out however you want, you’ll be the one who have to answer to God not just for how you live but what you say. And your silence on my other questions tells me all I need to know about you and your stance on the Bible. You’re defending worldy ways, not Gods. That’s for sure.
IluvYHWH, you’re the one who is intolerant and certainly very angry, you’re even resorting to threats.
Sorry, I thought this was your blog IluvYHWH, the amount of comments you have made is commendable. No you can disagree with me if you like – I would prefer to be taken seriously though. I have been a Christian for over forty five years so I know a few things. One thing I know is that God is not the wrathful, angry being you seem to portray. I know it doesn’t feel like it to you – but when you talk about abortion and pre-marital sex or whatever – you give the impression that to get to heaven you have to do something right – if you have the wrong opinion you will be condemned. This kind of talk is legalism and the Bible warns against this – if you want to preach law then you had better get it all right. There is a lot you do not know about homosexuality, please research sites other than those dedicated to “fixing” them. You are doing yourself and Christianity a disservice…….see how hepful I am, more wise counsel, no charge absolutely free.:)
Not real sure where I resorted to name calling…..I did give you some advice about communication and how you sounded like a bigot…..are you a bigot?
@Dana, resorted to threats? quote me. @Tapman, you do some research that involves perspectives you don’t agree with. Because you deny facts from the other side. And because I am saying that homosexuality and abortion are the most divisive controversial topics that brings out the worst in those who are liberal I am a bigot? or I think God is just a wrathful God? This is a Christian blog and since you come on here and encourage Matt to go against Biblical teachings and what he himself believes, why do you think no one will protest? It’s exactly what I said before, if you oppose ppl who are on the liberal side on these two topics there is ZERO tolerance for any other opinion than yours..That’s a fact. And you’re proving it over and over again. And abortion is killing another life, so not exactly a small matter. Do you think sommeone could murder their mother and think it’s ok by God? where do you draw your line? You think that because God is merciful He has no parameters, or desire no morals, than you might not want to follow the God of the Bible since it’s loaded with commands about morals. Believeing in God IS following His teachings. At least those who say they don’t believe in it outright are honest. Unlike you.
I know it’s an unchristian thing to do but I will confess it later – your a knob head Iluvyjwh.
you’re like the rest who slam Christians for standing with what it teaches. intolerant and rude.
Thankyou
NARTH? A completely discredited junk science organization.
The science isn’t in NARTH- its in a historically critical and accurate study of antiquity and the Old and New Testaments. It is a fact, an undisputed fact that the only sexual minority in the bible, that would have been synonomous with same-sex activity, was eunuchs- even if you don’t take the remarks of Jesus in Matthew to apply to eunuchs the point still sticks. Homosexuality in the ancient world was not the way we understand it 2,000 years later- you can’t apply 2,000 year old stoneage scripture to a completely new and complex understanding of human sexuality.
Put down the crack pipe, kid, and pick up some scholar material, like a New Oxford Standard Bible, or take a class.
I hope you enjoy your pathetic, lonely, venomous life.
The reality is that people are reacting to Matt because he is speaking the truth and their consciences are prickled by the truth. They want to silence him because in them is a lingering fear that he is right. We are facing something much greater than the issue of homosexuality but on how we define morality or God’s will for us? Do we define it by how we are created shown by our biology with its intended purpose, and the years of proven morality by scriptural documentation both in its historical record and call to purity. We now have a generation who wants a spirituality and love without morality because self-determination is the new god of our enlightenment though it can easily fluctuate. We are called to truth not subjective experience or the dialog of popularity as the measure for determining holiness. The power of the gospel is about a faith that God has spoken in Christ and he can transform even the most impossible situation for us. I know from the trustworthy account of scripture that God is not mocked and our choices either bring us death or life. Faith in Christ is our only hope and it will work. Do we believe that he is true to his promise to transform us from sin to light or do we just depend on our own blinded senses to determine truth? God can transform anyone. Don’t base what can or cannot happen on our limited understanding of experience or opinion but on who Christ is. If you stand firm on Christ and his promises that you will see the power of God released in your life. It may take time but he is faithful to do it.
2nd Peter 1:3-4 “His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”
Lets seek other believers for prayer so God can do a work in others instead of constantly arguing with those who have given themselves entirely to sensuality. Love them so they can see a difference in them while holding firmly to the truth that can set them free. It is the Holy Spirit who can awaken them so we must pray for mercy in hopes that some can see the light before it is to late. God’s love is what draws them to repentance.
1 Corinthians 4:20 “For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.”
amen
Freedom Campus:
I responded to Matt because I know the painful lie he’s trying to live. Psalms 139:13 says God made us the way we are in our mother’s womb. God made us gay, but the prejudice, discriminating anti-gay Christians urge us to lie to ourselves and pretend to be straight.
noone is asking you to pretend, ever. Yes, God formed us in the womb, this is why abortion is wrong, which 99% of sexual liberals think is right. And no, you were not born gay. There wold not be any commandment in the Bible against homosexuality if that was the case. Jesus said he testified to the truth, and he spoke of what marriage is (see Mt 19:4-9). True, many cannot (yet at least) change, but some do, verifying this is possible. The deep physchology about this is often not very well understood. But I do know that with God all things are possible (Mt 19:26). If you can see and believe in the invisible, God can do the impossible. If you want to change, because you have to want to 100%, (same with other issues) then seek out others in that ministry and start the healing process.
How can you say any gay person wasn’t born gay? When did you choose to be straight? If you are gay and you are now struggling with your god-given identity, then I pity you and urge you to not fight God, but accept your true nature.
This is why I say this; I know people who have “changed” (both ways btw and I personally believe in the Bible and I doubt God would outlaw it if you were born that way. Also; nature/biology testifies to this.
1) “… I know people who have “changed” (both ways btw…”
But you didn’t answer the question. When did you change?
2) Now, I have known many confused individuals who have spit on God’s plan for their lives. Those that turn their backs on reality tend to be wretched individuals as recorded by the article I posted. Or, perhaps your oen tortured life?
3) “…I personally believe in the Bible and I doubt God would outlaw it if you were born that way.”
You mean God wouldn’t command women to not teach men? You’re right! Only a hypocrite woman would defy God. Or, perhaps hypocrisy has hardened your heart? God had warned you about hardening your heart (Hebrews 3:8). Maybe you should repent – either of teaching or hypocrisy. Your choice.
4) “Also; nature/biology testifies to this.”
You’re right. Women should obey the bible. Now, as for marriage equality, your biology argument means the elderly should never marry – since biology makes childbirth impossible and sex very difficult. People who are not able to have children – no marriage! Right? That is your absurd argument. Right?
why the hostiliy? If you’re a Christian, how can you be spiteful towards Christians who adhere to what it teaches? Women not teaching, which only Paul said, is on par with homosexuality? not exactly. And I hope you don’t want me to start quoting all passages against it, including what Jesus said, because I am sure you know them. I haven’t changed,. I’m not gay. I do know people who have changed though and that topic is heavily censured by the LGBT agenda, as I am sure you also know. Marriage equality is a phrase used to mislead, because it is not about equality but a change in definition. And changing it affects children. If you don’t want to embark on the journey to see if you can change then don’t. You can face God with your own desicions, but you should not ask Christians to not believe in what Jesus and the Bible teaches about sexuality.
1) “why the hostiliy?”
Hostility? Gurl, now you talkin’ Cray-cray.
2) “Women not teaching, which only Paul said, is on par with homosexuality?”
So you’re indulging in spiritual dishonesty and hypocricy?
3) “I’m not gay.”
So, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
4) “I do know people who have changed though and that topic is heavily censured by the LGBT agenda, as I am sure you also know.”
This is a lie. I have met many broken men like Matt who suffered at the hands of reparative therapists.
5) “Marriage equality is a phrase used to mislead, because it is not about equality but a change in definition.”
Biblical marriage included polygamy and rapists marrying their victims.
6) “And changing it affects children.”
My 3 children love my partner.
7) “… but you should not ask Christians to not believe in what Jesus and the Bible teaches about sexuality.”
This is why I speak to you. I was just like you, but so many kind Christians and kind atheists took the time to speak/ correct/ love me. I extend that same love to you. I know the bitterness of your heart, and I know the beautiful person you can be.
wow…. you are rude. and you don’t know the Bible. it never ever condoned rape. and b4 you even try to go there, learn Hebrew. ok. and polygami, yes, it was a matter of economics. and? Homosexuality carried the death penalty, so how does that advance your case? And you didn’t even answer anything about gays who have changed. Many have and I know this personally so stop proming the LIE that it’s not happening. You raise children? how may I ask? by adoption of making lab-babies? You’re part of the crowd how now says it doesn’t matter if a child has a father or mother? because that, I can assure you, is a lie from hell and *demonic*.
1) “wow…. you are rude. and you don’t know the Bible.”
Why the name calling? You’re weak on facts, so you attack my character.
2) “it never ever condoned rape.”
I have read the bible several times. You and I both know better.
3) “And you didn’t even answer anything about gays who have changed.”
No, you’re right. They change like Ted Haggard or Minister George Rekers, et al. Because Matt learned his lesson early, maybe he won’t live a life of hypocrisy.
4) “You raise chldren? how may I ask?”
I already answered this question. I’m just like Matt, but older. I never cheated, yet she chose to divorce me.
5) “… I can assure you, is a lie from hell and *demonic*.”
Name calling again, and you know your opinion isn’t in the bible. You’re college educated and can do better than this.
ok, listen; read what I wrote b4 you respond. I didn’t call you names, I said that saying that having a father and mother isn’t important, is demonic. It is. It’s fricking insane. And I’m sorry your wife left you, but that means your bi-sexual. Why not, since you’re a christian, seek to be with another woman? and no, the Bible does NOT condone rape. And it’s very obvious that you don’t know Hebrew, nor have studied other texts like Josephus confirming those misunderstood passages that Bible haters use to say it condones rape. It doesn’t. And you keep denying that ppl can change. Just because you don’t know anyone doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. don’t you think you’re pretty arrogant to say so when I’m telling you I know ppl who have. Are you calling me a liar? It’s pretty scary how the LGBT agenda is succeeding with their censurship and denial in this matter. But, it certainly reveals exactly what they’re about. We all know who you’re serving if you lie. Hint; it’s not God.
1) “I didn’t call you names.”
So far you’ve said:
” how can you be spiteful”
“wow…. you are rude. and you don’t know the Bible.”
2) I never said fathers and mothers are not important. My children are lucky to have a mother, a father and a step-father.
3) “… but that means your bi-sexual.”
Gay men and women can have sex with the opposite sex – that’s basic biology. I am 44, and I know I am gay, thank you.
4) “Why not, since you’re a christian, seek to be with another woman?”
I did this. The results were disastrous, just as Matt trying to deny his true nature. Matt should seek a monogamous marriage – not play on Grindr.
5) “… the Bible does NOT condone rape.”
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 – but only if you ignore the passages that you do not like – i.e. the passages they command women not to teach.
6) “And it’s very obvious that you don’t know Hebrew…”
Condescending? Pride comes before the fall – unless I just don’t know Hebrew. And, Josephus? Please… A bitter, ex-jewish, Roman citizen? Sure, no scribe EVER altered his words.
7) “It’s pretty scary how the LGBT agenda is succeeding… We all know who you’re serving if you lie….”
You are so much like me. I do extend love to you. You may be bitter, but a beautiful woman is inside of you waiting to come out.
hahaha….. my goodness. you really know how to work it, don’t you? calling you out for being spiteful and not knowing the Bible is calling you names? get real.. and i already told you I know the passage you’re talking about. it’s talking about pre-marital sex NOT rape. To verify this you have to know hebrew and context and extra biblical work like that of Josephus. And you don’t. And I’m glad you don’t deny the importance of a mother and father. now ppl on the LGBT bandwagon do. That’s demonic. And if you can have sex enough to produce 3 kids by a woman, I’d say, you’re not gay but have gender issues. I’ll be praying for you
1) “you really know how to work it, don’t you?”
”
Calling you out on your hypocrisy is working it? Check.
2) “it’s talking about pre-marital sex NOT rape.”
But the translators who know Hebrew better than you or I chose the word “rape” because it was the closest corresponding word.
3) “To verify this you have to know hebrew …”
Your pride again.
4) “That’s demonic.”
Really? Where in the bible does it say this, or is it one of those “Hebrew” passages.
5) “And if you can have sex enough… but have gender issues.”
But you’ve already admitted you have no idea what it is to be gay. So, your statement is just crap, like your other arguments.
6) “I’ll be praying for you
Thank you. Please ask God to open your heart, that you might see your own speck before you have the presumption to comment on your neighbor’s log. Unless, of course, that’s another one of those slippery Hebrew passages!
7) You can change. You are loved. You don’t have to prove yourself to anyone with a college degree. Once you see your worth, it’s easier to love others. Good luck.
yeah, you know the devil is a liar. Youre joining up with him, and trying to bring down Matt with you. you’ll have to answer to that, not me.
1) “Youre joining up with [the devil], and trying to bring down Matt with you.”
Because I do not think you’re soulless, I choose to believe you typed these words with a pang of conscience considering your previous comments.
2) I would rather Matt live an honest life of a gay man than live the hypocrite’s life the ex-gays do.
3) “you’ll have to answer to that, not me.”
We’ll all answer for our own sins. Consider the bible:
Ecclesiastes 7:15-17
In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of theses; the righteous perishing in their righteousness, and the wicked living long in their wickedness. Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise—why destroy yourself? Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool—why die before your time?
you keep on isconstruing everything I say, just like you misconstrue the Bible. YOU can do whatever you want because you’ll have to answer for you. But if you encourage Christians who battle temptation to give in, you’re misleading other ppl. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil” Isa 5:20.
Hi,
I had my kids for the weekend. We had a great time selling our art at the local farmers market, visiting relatives and seeing my nephew’s new born son.
1) “But if you encourage Christians who battle temptation to give in, you’re misleading other ppl.”
I cannot remain quiet about the truth. That would be a sin. If I remained quiet, the rocks would cry out (Luke 19:40). (I understand the context of the original passage, but thought the sentiment was appropriate here.)
2) I believed the lies the well-meaning Christians told me. I will not remain quiet.
you think you supersede Scripture, Jesus and biology, and the experience of those who have changed. I think not.
I never said that, but I see Matt has come back on-line. Hopefully older and wiser.
you said you knew the truth. I don’t think you even know the reason, psychological one, why you are. so, don’t go and proclaim you know the truth. Like I’ve said b4, there wold be no commandment against it if you were created that way, and or physical feutures wouldnt be what they are. And if you feel like you can’t change you can take that to God, but you should not tell others to not seek God’s will on this. (and I doubt God’s will is not in line with Scripture – if you think that you might be following the wrong religion)
1) “I don’t think you even know the reason, psychological one, why you are. so, don’t go and proclaim you know the truth.”
No one knows why God makes people gay. It’s a Mystery. Don’t presume you know better.
2) “there wold be no commandment against it if you were created that way…”
There would be no commandments about women not teaching if God didn’t want them going against His natural design. – You see? Your argument is bare-boned hypocrisy.
3) “And if you feel like you can’t change…”
You’re the one with the problem. Your hatred has made you spiritually weak.
4) “(and I doubt God’s will is not in line with Scripture…”
You don’t follow the Bible.
my hatred? all who disagree with you are haters? that is a lie from hell and a really cheap shot. Grow up. And I don’t follow the Bible? is that something you also say to everyone who debates this issue with you and don’t agree with you? where in the Mosaic Law does it say women can’t teach? and where did Jesus say anything about that. plz tell me. we’ve already talked about this and so you go back to it again? running out of arguments? You want to muzzle and intimidate everyone who believes in what the Bible has to say about this, is about as un-Christian as it gets. If you had any decency, you could plainly say you disagree with it, can’t live up to it.. anything. But to demonize those who follow the teachings… that is as low as it goes.
“low blow” ? “demonize”?
Gurl, really? Look, friend me on Facebook. I’m the only Judd Mann in Little Rock, Arkansas, USA. You are a good person, but bitterness will rob you of your joy.
my joy? I have joy. I’ve had it all my life. As any christian knows, it’s the best part of walking with God. Again, everyone who disagree with you don’t have joy? and you want to be friends with me on FB? good grief… so you can plaster insults on my wall for my friends to see? I mean really? why do you want to be friends on FB with a woman you don’t even like? your life revolves around your sexual identity. and arguing for it. we have nothing in common. so why?
It takes bravery to be a friend. It takes bravery to drop your anger and bitterness.
so true…. when are you gonna do that?
Why did’t these anti-gay activists choose not to be gay? Oh, because they were born that way! http://m.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti-gay-activists-caught-being-gay/joanne?format=GRID